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I think another reason for the shortage of youth hunters is because of what hunting seems to be turning into.
Hunting shows rarely emphasize traditional values
most of them shows focus on one thing and one thing only, "Antler size and scoring" Then you got the hunters that
get trapped into the shows beliefs and spread more glamour about horn hunting.
as far as the high dollar hunts with greedy outfitters their major concern is Antler size also.
It is a RARE thing to watch a hunting show that focuses on Hunting Traditions, Family values, Hunting ethics...
The Hunting Heritage was about hunting game animals for table fare it was never about hanging antlers.
You know what else is really upsetting but happens, The fact that many guys that go on those paid "Outfitter" hunts,
and don't even bring home the meat they harvest,,, their only purpose for their paid hunt was to shoot a wall hanger
and I know I'm not the only one uncomfotable with that.

Is that what the new hunting traditions are going to turn into? Is that going to become the new hunting Heritage?
Are those the new customs and practices we want to pass along to the next generation of hunters?

There's absolutely nothing wrong with game mounts, but the facts behind some mounts depend on the circumstances surrounding the harvest.

Ronn you have to understand that it isn't bashing or belittling an outfitter when you share the facts.
I Personally haven't ever said one thing about an outfitter that wasn't a fact.
 

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not fact bb. your perception/opinion. how many paid or guided hunts have you been on? and it is belittling that type of hunt because you, everyone, are saying its ruining hunting. just flat out not true. keeping a tradition alive and teaching the kids isn't someone else's job its the parents. there are a lot of things that people blame on outside influences but it still boils down to the mentor, parent to teach what they believe to be right to their own charge. time constraints may force folks to hunt with these guys. who knows and who cares its their reasons , so be it. and traditionally killing an animal was just for the meat. folks also raised a pig or cow in the back yard for the same reason that to has changed with the times, not completely but a lot. no one is saying you, by you i mean those that look down their noses at others, have to like the way others choose to do things.

these posts have been just short of saying that ain't hunting. who am i or you or anyone else to say whats right for the next guy. i can respect a persons feelings about such things but these posts are belittling based on prejustices and misconceptions. either that or just plain sour grapes.
Ronn I had a nice long reply written up last night but my power went out and of course I lost it all but I gotta say my comments aren't based on anyones perceptions or anyones opinions they're based on "facts" only

It's a fact that If you're only allowed to shoot a certain size buck or larger Yet you choose to shoot a smaller size buck you get fined by the outfitter, you get that? A fine, A Penalty for shooting a smaller deer? well that sure teaches youth hunters a whole lot about Ethics.

with many outfitters you don't even have to take the meat from your deer home, the outfitter in many cases (for another small fee of course) will deal with it. another fine lesson for the youth.

another fact, an outfitter or his guide does all the scouting and stand placement, all the client does is show up to take the shot. I'm not sure that's a good method for youth hunters.

I think i've made a clear point on the subject and I've said it all before, ANYONE can choose how, when, where, or why they hunt but nobody should try to define hunting with an outfitter by anything other than what it really is, and I don't care how anyone says it,, it all boils down to Antlers on the wall and that's it, the mount makes a very impressive display but sure doesn't offer much on the "Tale of the hunt" ...

"Yeah I went on up to XYZ outfitters and paid 5000 big green ones to shoot that SOB."

there's just something about that story that I''ll never find comfort in and I really dont know how any hunter can be satisfied with it either and whats worse is after they go and get their "Trophy" they gotta go try to get a bigger one.... :confused:

and now it is my "Opinion" that outfitters are tainting the Hunting Heritage by focusing too heavily on "Antler Scores" In the past hunters hunted for table fare they never did it for antlers.

I hope everyone understands the point I'm trying to make here, I just happen to be more comfortable hunting on open public lands where my chances of getting an outfitters definition of a "Trophy" is still very possible, Year after Year massive racked bucks are harvested from public lands throughout most of the Continental United states. Nobody should have to pay outrageous dollar amounts to harvest whitetail deer or any other game animal for that matter.
now that's how I see it and it's fine if anyone wants to disagree with me but those are the facts.

and as far as the simple things, I have "0" requirements when I go on a hunt, the more rustic the cabin the more comfort I find. :coffee:
 

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i hate when that happens. usually i push the wrong button and its gone

there is a fine because its breaking the rules agreed to before the hunt.

the rules before the hunt come by way of a license purchase.

the rules are there for qdma. big emphases on the q. so there's a rule.

so a mature Doe isn't a quality deer?

it teaches kids to play inside the rules. if you don't like the rules don't play the game. simple. keep playing your own game.

qdma is ethical. for the life of me i can't figure out why you think its not.

QDMA is a whitetail deer managent plan, it has nothing to do with hunter ethics.


u run that word, ethical, out there like everyone must follow your ethics or its not ethical. if each of us decides what is right and wrong then, logically, holding out for a buck thats within the rules is ethical. the FACT you think its not, is an OPINION not a FACT.

like i said before, our heritage is to have cows, pigs, and chickens running around for food as well. but that don't happen much any more either.

tons of farms have cows, pigs, sheep, chickens and a whole lot of other animals not mentioned. farm animals are not part of the "Hunting Heritage"


you are right about the just a shooter thing. there is a lot that is missing which does diminish the experience, in my opinion, but if thats what the person wants, so be it, but it for sure doesn't make it bad or wrong. its definitely apples and oranges. different, both fruits, both tasty.

so trying for better is wrong in your book?

Better than what? At what point is the RACK ever going to be good enough for the Trophy Hunters?

following the terms of a contract is unnecessary?

the contract comes with a license purchase, the State license allows the person to hunt for any deer that meets legal requirements. I don't think an outfitter should have the right to tell some youth hunter that he cant shoot a 120 class buck if he chooses even if it is on the outfitters land, Especially if he cliams his land isnt fenced in which means it's the states wildlife and they should decide the rules not the outfitter BUT if his deer are fenced in then he can call the shots however he chooses.


huh. great lessen there for the kiddies.

i've always said shoot what you want, thats legal or with in the rules of the contract,

just there should a little forethought put into why one squeezes the trigger.

why? If it's a legal game animal within the laws set forth why should anyone have to apply fore thought on what they harvest?

not to justify it to me, or to you, or to anyone else, but to themselves. that goes for the guy that shoots the fork horn and the guy that passes it for a booner. how is passing a fork looking for a big one wrong?

Many Avatars of Big Bucks come from public lands and the hunters are dang proud to harvest them that way. "News Flash" not all trophys come from greedy outfitters.

if horns weren't a big deal, then everyone would have avatars showing dead does or plates of meat not big ole bucks.


Ronn you and I could go back and forth on this subject all day long but,,, at the end of the day all we would have gotten done is a lot of talking. :biggrin:
 

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I'm in the middle here, not gonna take sides but a question Bruce. Do you not think it right to follow the requirements or wishes of the landowner that allows you to hunt his property? The reason I ask is that one of the farms I hunt, the landowner told me not to kill squirrels. Anything else was fiine but no squirrels. They are legal game, should I shoot them or abide by her wishes?
you have to absolutely abide by what the landowner requests.
 
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