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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
After reading this further this may refer to older models of the above mentioned gun
daddus
 

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Hey guys have any of you seen or read this?
Dangerous Muzzleloaders
daddus
Oh boy this again! Its the same Wakeman scare tactics he tried to use to take customers away from cva & traditions and bring them over to shoot what ever rifle company that was paying him.

He won't ever tell any one about the savage Ml's he personally has blown up or that fact that they have exploded in other shooters hands. But again, any time a gun blows kaboom, we will NEVER know the true story behind it.

Hes lost a lot of ground over the years and people are taking him as a joke these days.
 

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I came across this issue a few years ago, from what I could gather it was some CVA guns made in 1995 and 1996. Since then there doesn't seem to be any more issues or incidents. Randy Wakeman seems to be a very knowledgeable guy, but it also seems to me that he likes to pick on anything that isn't either Knight or T/C. But there obviously were some problems with '95-'96 guns made by CVA. According to him, anything made by either CVA or Traditions is junk. I think that is a total fallacy.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Thanks guys,
That is why I posted this to see who is pounding smoke where,
thanks again
daddus
There is always someone with a vendetta
 

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Many years ago, CVA made a rifle called the Apollo. There are still some of them floating around in fact. Some of the early models had a faulty breech plug that would let loose and blow backward. The results were injuries and lawsuits that basically put CVA into bankruptcy. BPI (Black Powder Industries) purchased CVA and reformed the company. Chuck Hawks, and Randy Wakeman in particular do have safety concerns about CVA/BPI. The barrels are made in Spain. They do not require extensive testing of the barrels before they can be imported to the United States. In fact on the barrel is a pressure rating that technically would be considered unsafe with many of the current loads. Is that rating the top of what the barrel can take? I doubt it, because they could never settle the law suits. There are no regulations in the black powder industry that says you must test your barrels to this point. And that is what Randy Wakeman and others are upset about. Also they claim there were barrels that blew up but because of legal maneuvering, the facts of the incident can not be made public.

So the question is, are CVA, Beartooth magnum, Traditions, A&H, Winchester, Remington all safe? Since all their barrels are made in Spain in the same area and many are inter related to each other... Well those barrels are among the top sellers volume wise in the United States. I read the paper and have not read about a massive number of barrels blowing up. Anyone who does not take these rifles serious, can make a load that is dangerous. But it does not have to be a CVA to be dangerous. Even the better brands can be.

What I suggest is, if you have fears that the barrels are not safe, then do not purchase the products. I own a few guns some that the barrel comes from Spain like the CVA and many other rifles. I am shooting 100 grains and feel safe with it. I have shot CVA inlines and have shot magnum loads. They handled it fine. They are good shooters as well.
 

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Never said that they do but they do have there own testing facilities here in the usa. Others have been unable to show that imported frontloaders are tested with the charges they recommend--charges that are not recommended by powder manufacturers.
 

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They test them at something like 40% over the max limit.

Over at my place I had a few guys from germany and CVA is fairly popular over there as well. When they buy them, they come into germany and MUST go to the proofing house where they stay for up to a month waiting to get tested. The proof house fires them 3 times i believe with charges 30% over max. CVA has their own testing facilities as well, they only test a # of their barrel batch, just like TC and Knight.

Many of us believed that BARREL PROOFING was a mandatory requirement but in my reading and investigating various sources I have found that PROOFING IS NOT A REQUIREMENT IN THE USA.

The UK and all C.I.P.member countries (USA and Switzerland are not CIP members) must follow the UK mandate that all small arms (except for those used by the military) must be proofed by an ACCREDITED PROOF HOUSE.

C.I.P = Commission Internationale Permanente pour l'Epreuve des Armes à Feu Portatives (Permanent International Commission for Firearms Testing - commonly abbreviated as C.I.P.

In numerous sources it is stated that the USA does not have regulations or legislation requiring proofing of firearms and IT IS LEFT UP TO THE MANUFACTURER TO DETERMINE IF PROOFING IS NECESSARY.
 

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Maybe they do this in Germany when they import it from Spain. They don't go to a proof house here to be tested after import into the usa. What is the Big Deal About Proof?
You could blow this off as randy chuck agenda but it seems credible to me.
CVA told me no not tested to 20'000 or 25'000 psi Austin & Halleck did further testing in the USA along with TC & others. Thats note worthy in my book.
 

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CVA does in fact test well over 25k, just not every barrel gets tested, same as the other American muzzleloading companies. TC/knight "GM" Actually dont even test all of their barrels. No barrel Manf. will tell you what they test to the max due to some bubba going, hey i can shoot smokeless once i figger out how much powder is safe to use!

Gunsmith we went to recently said the maximum barrel thickness you can drill to is .025" Someone "bubba he called him lol" thought, hey if thats as much as you can go, im going to flute a barrel to this max and get it nice and light! The guy actually did it for a customer, the customer shot it and the barrel exploded taking off his left hand and part of his face. He lived and sued, but in the end, no insurance, no home, basically got nothing for the encounter.

And yes you are right, the wakeman article has zero credibility in my eyes.
 

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Wakeman is is the pockets of a Tulsa, OK personal injury lawyer with an ax grind with CVA. At least one of the cases that Wakeman and that lawyer spotlight was caused when the new to muzzleloaders guy bought a CVA gun and loaded it with a large volume charge of smokeless powder: Not surprisingly the shooter was badly injured. i met a man who was present on the range when that gun blew up.
 
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