I think sabots are the way to go because of better gas seal, consistency, as well increasing the life of your barrel. Muzzle loaders have so many small variables that if you can keep them narrowed down any way you can it will only make you better down range. Conicals also tend to be much heavier so not to be as flat shooting. I have been shooting muzzle loaders for all of my gun season deer hunting for about 20 years so believe me when I say I have tried everything on the market. Hope this helps.
noob question
ok my uncle is big on casting his owen conicals for muzzleloaders and is convinced that this is the way i should go. we are good friends with a guy who runs the local gun shop and he seems to think that sabots are the way to go. at first i was thinking that the price diff, and my uncles confedence in conicals enuff to go on. but now i am thinking that if i cast my own rounds that there is no way to cast them all to the exact same grain count. and that because of this i could not get the acuracy out of them i could get with a sabbot. am i over thinking it, or will the difference of a few grains afect the acuracy of the shot?
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I think your right about the grains being different affecting your consistency. Really the only way to know is to try the conicals for yourself. Good Luck!
I agree with WMI
I love the powerbelts myself
I love the powerbelts myself
Sabots are the only thing I have shot in the last 15 years or so.I think they shoot great.
Powerbelts work fine up to 80-85gr of powder. Once you get up over that and the bullet exceeds 1800-ish fps then then the bullet starts to lose accuracy and expansion becomes an issue. The little plastic skirt and the undersized bullet allow outgassing effecting the accuracy. I have taken a few deer with them. All recovered but poor blood trails. Hit some muzzleloader forums and you will find general consensus on this.
so what is a good sabbot for 100 grains.
I have very good luck with Barnes hollow points or the new t/c's. Barnes works awesome out of a Knight but are tough to get down a T/C,
were can i find these Barnes hollow points ?
Try the Barnes TMZ .451/50 cal. 24/box at $25.72/ea from Midsouth Shooters Supply. They are pricey but constructed from solid copper and retain a high % of there weight in ballistic gel tests. This is the boatail version. The flat base version is the TEZ which alot of people have good luck with out of Knight guns.
Bass Pro, Just about any good sporting goods store. Dick's, Cabela'swere can i find these Barnes hollow points ?
cool i got a Dicks sporting goods shop about 10 miles from my house.
Make sure they have the black sabots.:thumbup::thumbup:
What Rifle Do You Shoot?
Prescribing a load for a rifle without knowing which caliber and model it is...well, is like prescribing medicene for an unknown ailment.
Different makers often rely on different rates of rifling twist...and even if several folks buy the same model rifle from the same maker, it's not uncommon to experience a .001" to .002" difference in actrual bore diameter. Some times it takes a great deal of experiementing to settle on an optimum load for any rifle.
I shoot mostly Knights (4 of them), but also shoot T/Cs (2 of them), and own and shoot at least a half dozen other varrying brands/models. Lots of shooting has determined exact loads for each.
Generally speaking, if the rifle you shoot has a turn-in-28 inch twist bore, a saboted 240- to 275-grain bullet will give you best accuracy. If the rifle has a snappier turn-in-24 inch twist bore (i.e. Savage 10MLII), a slightly longer and heavier saboted 300 grain bullet is very often the way to go when seeking best accuracy.
Sabot-Bullet fit with the bore is important for accuracy. If you were to purchase, say, the easy loading flat-based 250-grain Barnes T-EZ bullets for your rifle, and found they loaded extremely too easy...there's a good chance that you may never know how well the rifle shoots. It takes a good grip of the rifling by the sabot in order to properly transfer the spin of the rifling to the bullet riding inside the sabot.
My favorite saboted whitetail bullet has been the 260-grain Harvester Muzzleloading "Scorpion PT Gold". Out of most .50 caliber rifles, it loads with just enough compression and grip of the rifling for excellent accuracy. However, in several of my ".50" caliber rifles, which have .502" bores, it loads way too easily - and accuracy suffers. However, Harvester offers this bullet packaged with either their standard black .50x.45 Crush Rib Sabot...or a slightly tighter fitting red .50x.45 Crush Rib sabot. And with the tighter fitting red sabot, those rifles with slightly over-sized bores are tack drivers.
My load is generally 110-grains of Blackhorn 209, which gets this 260-grain polymer-tipped spire point out of the muzzle at 2,030 f.p.s. - with right at 2,380 f.p.e. At 100 yards, it hits with about 1,550 f.p.e., and at 200 yards with about 1,100 f.p.e. For deer-sized game, 800 f.p.e. is generally considered the minimum needed. One good buck I took at 191 yards with this load, shot from a Knight "Long Range Hunter", ran just 30 yards and rolled in the snow like a big cottontail.
Just my two cents worth.
Toby Bridges
Prescribing a load for a rifle without knowing which caliber and model it is...well, is like prescribing medicene for an unknown ailment.
Different makers often rely on different rates of rifling twist...and even if several folks buy the same model rifle from the same maker, it's not uncommon to experience a .001" to .002" difference in actrual bore diameter. Some times it takes a great deal of experiementing to settle on an optimum load for any rifle.
I shoot mostly Knights (4 of them), but also shoot T/Cs (2 of them), and own and shoot at least a half dozen other varrying brands/models. Lots of shooting has determined exact loads for each.
Generally speaking, if the rifle you shoot has a turn-in-28 inch twist bore, a saboted 240- to 275-grain bullet will give you best accuracy. If the rifle has a snappier turn-in-24 inch twist bore (i.e. Savage 10MLII), a slightly longer and heavier saboted 300 grain bullet is very often the way to go when seeking best accuracy.
Sabot-Bullet fit with the bore is important for accuracy. If you were to purchase, say, the easy loading flat-based 250-grain Barnes T-EZ bullets for your rifle, and found they loaded extremely too easy...there's a good chance that you may never know how well the rifle shoots. It takes a good grip of the rifling by the sabot in order to properly transfer the spin of the rifling to the bullet riding inside the sabot.
My favorite saboted whitetail bullet has been the 260-grain Harvester Muzzleloading "Scorpion PT Gold". Out of most .50 caliber rifles, it loads with just enough compression and grip of the rifling for excellent accuracy. However, in several of my ".50" caliber rifles, which have .502" bores, it loads way too easily - and accuracy suffers. However, Harvester offers this bullet packaged with either their standard black .50x.45 Crush Rib Sabot...or a slightly tighter fitting red .50x.45 Crush Rib sabot. And with the tighter fitting red sabot, those rifles with slightly over-sized bores are tack drivers.
My load is generally 110-grains of Blackhorn 209, which gets this 260-grain polymer-tipped spire point out of the muzzle at 2,030 f.p.s. - with right at 2,380 f.p.e. At 100 yards, it hits with about 1,550 f.p.e., and at 200 yards with about 1,100 f.p.e. For deer-sized game, 800 f.p.e. is generally considered the minimum needed. One good buck I took at 191 yards with this load, shot from a Knight "Long Range Hunter", ran just 30 yards and rolled in the snow like a big cottontail.
Just my two cents worth.
Toby Bridges
:goodposting:I do agree 100%. I too have a cabinet full of muzzle loaders and have found each responds a little different. Not as much between guns of the same manufacture but more so between makers. It is always a good idea to spend as much time at the range playing with different loads to find the sweet spot so to speak of your particular fire arm.
my muzzel loader is a knight bighorn. if that helps any with recomending a sabbot. also i went to dicks sporting goods and the guy in the hunting section told me that i would want to use boar butter even with a sabbot. is that true, cause getting away from using boar butter is also anothe reason i was thinking of straying away from using conicals.
NO! Absolutely not. You have to keep things in perspective, if you want a tack driver you will need to tinker around a lot with your loads ( type of powder, grains of powder, different primers, different bullets and sabots, different bullet weights). Now not everyone strives for this type of perfection. A 1 1/2" group at 100 yards is pretty darn good. Can you get it tighter probably but it is a ton of range time and expense. For the average hunter I would keep it simple like using 100 grain of propellant of your choice and 250 grain sabots. Test a few different types and settle for your best group. Knights love Barnes but keep in mind if it loads too easy it is not going to shoot well. If it says easy load sabots I would personally stay away that is why I suggested the BLACK sabots. For myself I shoot just 2 rounds because of the possibility of a follow up shot. If you have to shoot more than twice (RARE) you need more range time in the first place. In all of my years I have only had to follow up three times. Go to the range and fire two shots with no cleanup between, if they are tight clean your gun well and go hunting. There is no perfect world in a hunting situation with cleaning time between shots so practise like you hunt. We are mostly hunters here not competition shooters. I am not a Power Belt fan. Knight bullets are Barnes so they did most of your testing for you. Once again think BLACK. More than likely you will be pleased with your performance.
so no boar butter if i use the barns black?
No Butter On Sabots!:ibtl::sadbanana::wacko:
I knew "hunt NH" used a Knight hence the TMZ/TEZ bullet recomendation.
A WMI states "No bore butter with sabots". I discontinued the use of bore butter in my TC renegade. It's moisture repellent is primarily bees wax which breaks down over time...I have a rusted barrel to prove it. It's actually better to use on the outside of your gun.
Once you figure out the optimal bullet be sure to be very consistent with your loading process. If you have variation in your loading process then that will transfer to the paper. IMHO this as important as the right bullet selection. You may have the right bullet/load combo and never know it!(pick up a Russell Lynch DVD and he will drive this point home)
At the range clean between each shot (2-3 wet/1 dry) and glide the bullet down the tube instead of tapping. When the bullet nears the charge increase the pressure. Put your foot under the buttstock so you can be consistent with the applied pressure...too hard and you crunch pellets if using them. Say goodbye to any accuracy with crunched pellets. I recommend a spin jag with the proper tip to ensure uniform tips. Find your shot sabots 20-25 yards out and inspect them. They can tell you alot. If the pedals are torn off then those will most likely be flyers and point back to excessive pressure, loading inconsistancy,etc. They should be flanged back evenly. Understanding your velocity is important as well but thats another thread. You may know all this stuff I mention but others may not.
A WMI states "No bore butter with sabots". I discontinued the use of bore butter in my TC renegade. It's moisture repellent is primarily bees wax which breaks down over time...I have a rusted barrel to prove it. It's actually better to use on the outside of your gun.
Once you figure out the optimal bullet be sure to be very consistent with your loading process. If you have variation in your loading process then that will transfer to the paper. IMHO this as important as the right bullet selection. You may have the right bullet/load combo and never know it!(pick up a Russell Lynch DVD and he will drive this point home)
At the range clean between each shot (2-3 wet/1 dry) and glide the bullet down the tube instead of tapping. When the bullet nears the charge increase the pressure. Put your foot under the buttstock so you can be consistent with the applied pressure...too hard and you crunch pellets if using them. Say goodbye to any accuracy with crunched pellets. I recommend a spin jag with the proper tip to ensure uniform tips. Find your shot sabots 20-25 yards out and inspect them. They can tell you alot. If the pedals are torn off then those will most likely be flyers and point back to excessive pressure, loading inconsistancy,etc. They should be flanged back evenly. Understanding your velocity is important as well but thats another thread. You may know all this stuff I mention but others may not.
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