[BruceBruce1959]

It upsets me to think that many hunters, (mostly the self proclaimed "Professionals") go and pay to hunt for animals, mostly Whitetail Deer at some Outfitters that's been raising and feeding deer specifically for massive antler development and THEN,
has the nerve to SCORE those deer for B&C or P&Y entries. How Sickening is that?
Shouldn't B&C or P&Y be strictly for animals that have been hunted by fair chase?
ANYBODY can go and BUY an Outfitter raised Deer BUT unless it's been harvested from the great Wild of Outdoors and not from caged or fenced in properties, It should have no place in B&C or P&Y and Hunters should start making demands to have those entries removed or Create other categories for those type of Entries,
Like ("B&D", Bought Deer) or the one I see as most fitting a category called ("P&P", Professionally Purchased)
The self proclaimed pro's should lower their heads in shame for entering outfitter raised Animals into either of those Registers, You would think by now a "PRO" would know the difference's between a real Trophy and a PRIZE. How's everyone else feel about this?

 

[joel the signman]

i know that that calling picking out a deer and paying to shoot it is nothing more than shopping.It sure aint hunting..sure some people don't have the time to hunt for a trophy but those same people should be happy just being out there.thats the way it goes sometimes(most times) you don't get anything .I agree with ya bruce that's not what the record books guys meant when they started.maybe a separate category is needed or an asterisk next to the name.sound familiar .just like the baseball guys.i think this is a problem in the way Americans think bigger is better and the being famous is so important.some people will do anything to be in the books they take short cuts(steroids) to avoid years of sweat and hard work..oh well i'll get down off my soap box

 

[onehorse]

Bruce, I agree with you on that, but I thought that the B&C book and SCI book required that the game is taken by fair case methods. Of course, people could and I guess do, lie about where they got the animal.
Here in Montana, we had elk farms where "hunters" could pick out an elk to shoot. A few years back we, hunters and non-hunters, decided to ban them, and that's just what we did with a referendum and vote which made it illegal.
The trouble is many (most?) hunters get so caught up in the ego and competition factors that the actual hunting becomes a secondary issue. The result is all sorts of cheating - buying heads, stealing heads, poaching, you name it. Maybe it would be better if there were NO record books. Really, what's the point?
Seems to me that the honor should go to the animal, anyway, and not the hunter. How about a record book that lists the animal, but doesn't name the hunter. THAT would separate the real hunters from the guys with big heads and little "you-know-whats".

 

[pdstan512]

well , I really see what your sayin but, that deer tthat my little brother shot was taken on a high fence ranch but we didnt Pick it out and one of our friends is possobly going to buy that ranch and said we could hunt on it, but really the deer was taken in fair chase, because really we were not gaurantied that deer or well we had never seen it before, but it was taken on a high fence but the guy has one of those elk farms and has axis and black buck, on their and isnt doing anything with steriods or drugs to the deer to make them big but he really is just making the genetics there good by years of shooting the more smaller and bad geneticid bucks, is that bad in your oppinion? or do you mean like the ones who have pics of deer for you to choose and charge you 5000 for one or 10000 for another?
and the person who might buy it said it would be cool to have some elk on there but not really alot maby 5 bulls and 10 cows and only let family or really close friends shoot those, and im gonna kind of change the subject of him onto my oppinion of why some people do shoot elk of of elk farms, Instead of "shopping" for an elk for 8000 you could most likly go to colorado for 4000 and go up on horseback and have an great adventure, for half the price but if some people never got the chance to do that when their body could and when they were fit and young enough but now they are older less fit to do that they could go shoot an elk with out putting they body and health at risk and go "shopping" for one, now im not saying thats good to do but i think its ok if you are older and less fit but they can score it to see how big itis but the shouldnt enter it in any competiotions. so tell me what you think about please

 

[onehorse]

pdsatn makes some good points. There are fences and then there are FENCES. I've never hunted those big deer management ranches in Texas, but my understanding is that even though they are fenced, some of them are thousands of acres. Of course, any place that guarantees an animal or has a no-kill-no-pay policy has to be suspect. There's no way anyone could guarantee a really wild, free-roaming animal and still stay in business.
As an older hunter with less legs and lungs than in the past, the idea of an easier hunt has some appeal. After all, I believe I've paid my dues during many days (and years) in freezing cold, snow and rain, etc. But even so, I think I'd still prefer fair chase hunting. However, I would welcome a setup where a certain state hunting district (NO FENCES PLEASE) would be reserved for us older guys just to cut down on the traffic and give us an equal opportunity. On the other hand, I like hunting with you young guys, so you can drag my animals for me... just kidding!
For you young and older hunters alike, if you are pondering the meaning of ethical hunting (and you SHOULD be), please get yourself a copy of Jim Posewitz's book, Beyond Fair Chase. You can get it in paperback for about 7 bucks at Amazon.com.

 

[pdstan512]

lol yeah I under stand you the guy who owns that ranch right now we payed him for 5 days and we could shoot 1 Trophy 1 management and 2 does but we only got the trophy and one doe so i think that was fair chase

 

[Berk]

I know that boone and crocket wont take an animal that was shot in a high fence area and im pretty sure pope and young wont either. here in ohio we have a club called the buckey big buck club and they wont take them either,and shouldnt in my opinion. shooting an animal raised in a pen is a no brainer. as far as high fences go,you can control the genetics,the rut by culling does,body size with supplementel feeding and patterns with food plots. now dont get me wrong im not against high fence hunting but its not the same as nonfence and is fairer but not the same as fairchase. in my opinion.

 

[BruceBruce1959]

you're looking past the point I'm making. I'm talking about "Antler Scoring" ...
I know there's always going to be outfitters offering "hunts for money" BUT the point I'm expressing is,
those animals should not be allowed into B&C or P&Y registers, that's all I'm saying But If a hunter wants to do a pay for hunt that's fine,
but if he gets a Trophy Scoring Buck while on that paid hunt, it shouldn't be allowed into P&Y or B&C. that's the point I'm making.
I hope this gives a clearer understanding on the point I'm making.

 

[Berk]

as said at the top of my post BOON AND CROCKET wont accept these animals and im pretty sure POPEANDYOUNG wont either.

 

[onehorse]

Ok, Bruce, let me see if I get your point now. It's that hunters who get an official trophy while using a guide or any "paid for" set up should not be able to enter them in the Book. Is that it?

 

[TNHunter]

P & C and B & C have pretty strict rules. i was looking on there at some records and they list their rules and also have one that is pretty open ended and they say that if they deam it an unfair chase they won't let it in. that was my take on it anyways

 

[BruceBruce1959]

P & C and B & C have pretty strict rules. i was looking on there at some records and they list their rules and also have one that is pretty open ended and they say that if they deam it an unfair chase they won't let it in. that was my take on it anyways

Yes Berk I did see your post but the sad part is, those Organizations do accept questionable entry's. let me give you just one Example Look at the second entry, It was PICKED UP, by the MO. Dept. of Cons. Is that Fair Chase? lol I don't think so, and that's a world record. Now that's just ONE Example Advertised at their own site but I betcha once it's brought to their attention and it's noted that it was commented on, it will magically become hidden from public view.. that's how those sort of things happen.

 

[buckfever]

Good Posts by all. Fenced in deer is not fair chase. And in my book paying money to hunt bucks in a non-fenced deer farm is a little suspect in my book. I am not downing the older guys or handicap hunters that hunt these farms at all. But your everyday healthy hunter should feel a little guilty about shooting a massive buck that he paid high dollar to shoot. Fenced or not fenced!!! I have always thought it would be cool to go to a ranch and just shoot a management deer but I have wondered if I would get any enjoyment out of it at all. I can just see it now. I would have it mounted on my wall and some friends would come over. "See that buck I shot him on a paid manangement hunt up north on a deer farm." I would not be proud of that. :bag:

I do know B&C and P&Y are not suppose to have high fence deer in their record buck. I do see what your saying about the deer that was found though Bruce. They have another scoring system for high fenced deer. I think it is called S&Y or S&I or something close to that.

Just enjoy hunting in its purest form. Whether it be a doe or whatever.

 

[timberghost]

Yeah I see the advertising in books, TV, and online for the outfitters that state "we grow and manage only the healthiest and biggest herds on our 16,000 acre RANCH, and we have a 100% kill rate." (end quote). Yup give us $2,500 and well practically bring the deer to you and put it in your truck. Jeez I think that most of the TV shows are on ranches and farms.

 

[Berk]

i understand your argument and i agree to a point. as far deer that are found goes it should be in. let me explain. when deer are entered into a record book its the deer not the hunter that is the trophey. example,the hole in the horn buckm was found along the railroad tracks here in ohio. the deer is massive, wasnt raised to be that way its just a free ranging deer,but because it didnt die at the hands of a hunter doesnt make less of a trophy. remember the point of these organizations is celebrate trophy free ranging animals not the way they died.

 

[Berk]

Yeah I see the advertising in books, TV, and online for the outfitters that state "we grow and manage only the healthiest and biggest herds on our 16,000 acre RANCH, and we have a 100% kill rate." (end quote). Yup give us $2,500 and well practically bring the deer to you and put it in your truck. Jeez I think that most of the TV shows are on ranches and farms.

any thing killed on these ranches wont go in the record books because theire not free rang fairchase deer.

 

[pdstan512]

well I see what your sayin ya know I actually enjoyed being on a no fenced ranch but I mean if our friend buys it we can hunt there for free and well you cant really turn that down and the owner said he had never seen the deer my little bro shot in the 7 years hes been there but most the time we sat there you could predict where the deer you saw would be the next morning cause all they do is run around in circiles and it is really likly you would see some deer youve seen before and I miss hunting on a no fence ranch because allthough it was like clock work what time and wich way the deer would come in and leave there was variety every hunt but that ranch was 10 sections and then when we hunted a 1 section ranch we always saw the same deer exept the last day of the season my dad killed a prettynice 9 point,so thats what I think

 

[Berk]

well I see what your sayin ya know I actually enjoyed being on a no fenced ranch but I mean if our friend buys it we can hunt there for free and well you cant really turn that down and the owner said he had never seen the deer my little bro shot in the 7 years hes been there but most the time we sat there you could predict where the deer you saw would be the next morning cause all they do is run around in circiles and it is really likly you would see some deer youve seen before and I miss hunting on a no fence ranch because allthough it was like clock work what time and wich way the deer would come in and leave there was variety every hunt but that ranch was 10 sections and then when we hunted a 1 section ranch we always saw the same deer exept the last day of the season my dad killed a prettynice 9 point,so thats what I think

your a luckey man to have such a nice place to hunt.wether you kill a big deer that can go into the record book or not its the expierence that you will remember. i rember the first deer that i took with a bow(doe) and i will never forget it.that was a trophey moment to me.

 

[BruceBruce1959]

Yeah I see the advertising in books, TV, and online for the outfitters that state "we grow and manage only the healthiest and biggest herds on our 16,000 acre RANCH, and we have a 100% kill rate." (end quote). Yup give us $2,500 and well practically bring the deer to you and put it in your truck. Jeez I think that most of the TV shows are on ranches and farms.

Man timberghost the 80's called they want their hunt rate schedule back LOL
Some ranches now charge between 7 and 10 thousand Dollars to harvest trophy Whitetail Bucks.
Just this morning I was reading an advertisement about a Ranch that wants 7500.00 Dollars to kill a 170 class B&C Deer. isn't that disgusting?

 

[buckslayer30/06]

It upsets me to think that many hunters, (mostly the self proclaimed "Professionals") go and pay to hunt for animals, mostly Whitetail Deer at some Outfitters that's been raising and feeding deer specifically for massive antler development and THEN,
has the nerve to SCORE those deer for B&C or P&Y entries. How Sickening is that?
Shouldn't B&C or P&Y be strictly for animals that have been hunted by fair chase?
ANYBODY can go and BUY an Outfitter raised Deer BUT unless it's been harvested from the great Wild of Outdoors and not from caged or fenced in properties, It should have no place in B&C or P&Y and Hunters should start making demands to have those entries removed or Create other categories for those type of Entries,
Like ("B&D", Bought Deer) or the one I see as most fitting a category called ("P&P", Professionally Purchased)
The self proclaimed pro's should lower their heads in shame for entering outfitter raised Animals into either of those Registers, You would think by now a "PRO" would know the difference's between a real Trophy and a PRIZE. How's everyone else feel about this?

I AGREE 100%