[Hunting Man]

I've held this position throughout our discussions, a small food plot planted to shoot a deer over is very close to baiting. In fact it may be legal but one might want to look at ethics. Foods plots are used for only two reasons, kill over and nutrition, how you choose to use them is YOUR business. After reading all the good posts on poaching then i start getting all worked up on this one. You all can start shooting me now, I'm a big boy, but some of the things I'm reading puts questions in my mind. Poaching/baiting/records/small food plots/ethics/legal/kill/fertilize public/??? Are we simply being lazy that we don't use our hunting ability that we have to plant a small food plot to lure the buck/doe into the killing fields? Are the scents that we use in the same catagory? As I stated prior, I hunt about a 1/2 mile from the food plots I plant. Maybe this is too close and I'm also guilty? I'm not afraid to put the target up. This will draw some fire I'm sure!
:ranting:

 

[ronn]

Huntingman, its for sure arguable. On this one its to each there own if its legal. You maybe a half mile away but there has to be some attraction to the plots you plant. even if they just hold deer in the area. 2 miles is not to far for a deer to travel to get groceries in an evening. I think different parts of the country look at it differently. Where I am there is no agriculture. Where in other states there are beans and corn growing all over the place and people hunting near them?????. I haven't used for plots of any kinda for reasons other than its right or wrong. It is legal here. Baiting is legal here with rules to follow but its legal. Here a weekend hunter is lucky to get a buck every couple years and a mature buck once in a life time. The woods are huge with no defined feeding areas or true bottle necks you would see in farm country. Add this to low deer densities and a hunter needs all the help he can get. These woods are big. A few years ago a Lear jet went down on Christmas eve. Three years went by before it was found. If you choose not to use your best weapon you have as a predator that's your choice. Look at it this way if you hunted over a food plot you could choose the right deer to take to improve the herd as apposed to the first safe shot. Ethics? If this guy thinks its unethical and that guy over there thinks it is ethical, who's right? Are you going to be the one to make the call? am I, no way will I say that guy is unethical that would be forcing my label on him. Would I use an attractant plot? yes. Will I? probably not but for reasons that most hunters don't have to deal with. would I bait? yup I would. Do you take a mature buck every year? and the mature deer are the ones to take according to the biologists. If you find a stand of oaks loaded with acorns do you walk away and hunt somewhere else? When you go fishing do you use bait on the hook or a lure? Ethically whats the difference? I'm not bashing on you, just putting it out there. Its a argument that will go on forever. thats all i got to say on the subject and you can't bait me into more. lol

 

[joel the signman]

"When you go fishing do you use bait on the hook or a lure? Ethically whats the difference? " I was gonna say the same thing.I use scents ,is that bait?What about calls?

 

[Hunting Man]

The thing that got me thinking was "fair chase". Does fair chase include baiting, scents, foodplots. Ronn, you do respond to baiting!!! Ha Ha. I knew this was a touchy issue, but what the heck, I want to hear whats on peoples mind.

 

[ronn]

Fair chase just means no high fence. I knew when I read the post you had just gotten a new big spoon. haha i know a few guys that don't think its fair to use all that stuff. they came to these conclusions while sitting on the edge of a bean field and they come from states where there are lots of deer. I tell people if you think your state is hard to deer hunt come to NH. You'll go home with a new appreciation for the state you are in. A guy comes up from VA and goes for a walk in the woods with a local after their hour walk he says "I don't think you have any deer in this state." true story.

 

[Hunting Man]

Fair chase means a bit more than only high fence. I think this old timer may be reflecting on modern times vs when I started hunting, oh maybe 40-42 years ago. I believe harvest has replaced "hunting" in a lot of today's hunting circles. So many gagets to lure in the deer makes it less important to teach hunting instead teaches harvesting. These are two different words with two different meanings. I enjoy Hunting, harvesting is only a small part of that, some mix up the two! That new spoon I got included electronic calls, motion sensors, trip wires, decoys, awac survaliance. I think I'll go to the attic and pull out the old red woolies and 5 buckle artics and remember where I came from. Maybe onehorse can relate???? What say you?

 

[ronn]

You asked a question I gave you my thought and then you say I'm wrong. Nice! If you didn't what a differing opinion maybe you should just write a manifesto and leave it at that. jeez!

I've have come to the realization that hunting really isn't a sport even though I'm a newbie to hunting with almost 40 years in the woods myself. It may be a life style or a way of life but more so its a management tool, so harvest would be the correct term. The biologist try to figure out the carrying capacity of the habitat and adjust the harvest accordingly. Now the states and their need of revenue fight them on that and change things, but hunting is a management tool. Its a newer way of looking at the big picture its not just ME ME ME anymore. its what is best for the deer. How many deer should be harvested? what sex? what age group, referring to antler restriction? It use to be, back in the olden days the the hunting regs were the same state wide. Now its MANAGEMENT AREA TO MANAGEMENT AREA. Did you notice its MANAGEMENT AREA not hunting area? That antiquated way of thinking is why VT is the way it is and NH is the way it is, and Texas is the way it is, oh and PA, again referring to antler restrictions. Everywhere states are trying to harvest the deer that make the herd better. deer are a resource just like trees, corn to the farmer, fish, and everything else. Without PROPER concern and care, management, all resources can be damaged. Just my thoughts and everyone else is welcome to theirs or mine if you like. either way its all good.

 

[Hunting Man]

ronn, now you are just peed off! Whats wrong with a different opinion? You seem very intolerant of other's opinions. I don't need a lecture from you, sorry. I believe in the protecting of the tradition of hunting vs just harvesting, which you don't seem to agree is different, why get your dandruf up! We just see things different! I hope that some of the young hunters today are being taught "hunting" and not only "harvesting"! Harvesting and management deal mostly with only the killing part of hunting. There is a lot more to it, as you well know! My point is, are the young people learning the difference? Does all the gagets dimminish the need to teach true hunting? Again, we will agree to disagree, thats good enough for me!

 

[Turtle]

Never have understood why baiting would be illegal while you can put out all the scents and mating calls you want. Give any male species the choice and he'll wake up hungry every time. IMO scents and calls are much greater lures.
That being said I think each person should be allowed to utilize all methods to properly manage their herd. Limits are there for a reason, not just state but self imposed limits in managed areas. I also believe that as we progress and our personal goals or limits become easier to achieve that we should and quite often do challenge ourselves. Personal choice to refrain from the use of one or more of the lures available. Target one buck as the one you're after. I think these are natural progressions that few will ever enjoy and that's a shame. But at the same time , I think it would be wrong to make the choice for someone or force them into it.

 

[ronn]

Well stated turtle.

Huntingman me intolerant that's laughable. You were the one that asked the question and when you didn't like my answer basically said I'm wrong. You drew that 42 years hunting like it was some sort of pistol. I can't give a lecture but you can, that sounds fair doesn't it? I feel you are treating me like I haven't thought these issues through and reached my own conclusions. I personally think I could learn something from anybody regardless of age or regardless of subject. Hunting for a long time doesn't make you or me right. You seem to be one of the least progressive thinking people I've heard from but I could be wrong. If you bow hunt are you using a compound or a long bow or still throwing rocks to get game. Are you still out there catching fish by hand or are you using modern technology? Motors, trolling motors, all the gadgets? Tech is always progressing which is all that these gadgets are, modern tech. No one says you have to use them or even like them but to assume someone who does use them is less of a hunter than you is just wrong. I'll bet 40 years ago the was some old guy that thought he knew it all and refused to use a compound bow. "Them new finagled bows are just unfair. All them cables and wires and such. I got to go sharpen my new steel broad heads." To be honest with you I'm having a hard time trying to keep track of the things you don't like and are against. Food plots, baiting, fair chase, gadgets, crossbows, compounds, long, recurve, flint lock, percussion caps, sidelock, inline, smokeless, high power, all have been improved over the years. I not peeved, we just have a different way of thinking about things. On the plus side many angles of these issues are being seen. Somewhere on here someone used a signature. If you continue to do the same thing expecting a different out come that's a sign of insanity. That's paraphrasing Einstein, I think. And I'm not saying your are insane. Its just a way to think about things.

 

[Buckshot]

Ethics only apply when there is an agreement as to what is ethical e.g.. A code of ethics. I think it is a slippery slope you are on to try and apply your personal opinion as to what is ethical and what is not. I plant a boat load of food plots but very rarely hunt over them.

I killed an eight point while I was sitting in a field this year, was that "unethical"? Why not? I wasn't 20 feet up a tree in a hard wood thicket. In Alabama they hunt with dogs in some counties, now some would say that is unethical but there it is legal how could it be legal and unethical?

Ethics seems to be a word used a lot but still doesn't apply until a group has agreed as to what the ethics are they will abide to. Example would be a hunting club that agreed to not shoot small bucks. The gut who knowingly shoots a spike is unethical. Anything other than that is just one persons opinion about anothers actions.

 

[ronn]

Agreed! Oh and If I've said anything out of line please let me know. Here or in a pm. Here is good with me cause I don't believe I have said anything to be ashamed of. Sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings.

 

[Hunting Man]

Wait a minute, edison/insanity = genius/lunlatic isn't that a oxy-more-ronn? gotta admit thats funny. Simmer down its open discussion. Raising questions is not taking a position, its seeking imput from others and weighing the differences. Now I'll take that insanity plea and get off early on good behavoir with some community service. To all: If in anyway I have offended anyone please consider this an apoligy! My origional intent was to raise questions and discuss things, see where we differ. I guess I failed! Sorry!

 

[ronn]

I'm good and you far from failed. Like I said at least different angles are being looked at.

I know the point you were trying to make about the difference between hunting and harvesting, but it really hasn't got anything to do with the gadgets. If a hunter, like myself, thinks they are ethical and uses them that doesn't make them less of a hunter than one that won't use these gadgets, like yourself. This would be presumptuous and was the implication that was being made. Its hard to follow what you are against cause it roll or morphs into something else.

Was it Edison or Einstein? It was one of those guys. They were both enigmas. People ask themselves, why can't I get a deer and this is a reasonable answer. If you continue to do the same thing time after time and expect a different outcome that's a sign of insanity. That's paraphrasing.

 

[Southern Man]

Actually it was Roger Raglin, " We can't continue to do the same things and expect different results". And I think that's what all those that have gone before were trying to do, something different. A short cut to get better results. I guarrantee a cave man would have used a short cut in hunting if he knew of one and been hailed as a master hunter. Truth is there's not one. To consistantly score takes hard work and woodsman skills no matter where you are, unless you're buying all your hunts which most of us don't. Anyone can kill a big buck once, but can they do it consistantly? Most of the time it's not the tools they use but pure luck. Wether or not the tools you use are ethical is for each to decide, to a point. I link ethical very close to integrity.

 

[Southern Man]

Also, the tools are most of the time a money game. Just watch the outdoor channel. If a man used all that crap why aren't we killing the biggest and oldest bucks all the time?

 

[ronn]

Thats where Roger got it. Makes sense either way. When I went to Va in Feb sportsman show I got to have dinner with him, him and the guys from light field slugs. Everyone is always looking for bigger better faster and the manufacturers know this. There was a few of us from his forum that met up down there. IN, KY, OH, TN, MD, NH, VA were represented. It was a good time and Roger is a good speaker. He encourages one to think outside the box.

 

[Turtle]

:goodposting:

Ethics only apply when there is an agreement as to what is ethical e.g.. A code of ethics. I think it is a slippery slope you are on to try and apply your personal opinion as to what is ethical and what is not. I plant a boat load of food plots but very rarely hunt over them.

I killed an eight point while I was sitting in a field this year, was that "unethical"? Why not? I wasn't 20 feet up a tree in a hard wood thicket. In Alabama they hunt with dogs in some counties, now some would say that is unethical but there it is legal how could it be legal and unethical?

Ethics seems to be a word used a lot but still doesn't apply until a group has agreed as to what the ethics are they will abide to. Example would be a hunting club that agreed to not shoot small bucks. The gut who knowingly shoots a spike is unethical. Anything other than that is just one persons opinion about anothers actions.

I agree the word unethical gets thrown around way too much. If you don't agree with me you may want to examine your ethics. Same as PETA tries to push their views on others.

Unethical- contrary to conscience , morality or law.


I believe the average person does not think of hunting year round like the one's in this forum do. They work in factories six or seven days a week , they travel, have family obligations, what ever. They may join clubs plant food plots and never actually find the time to hunt. Know some of the nicest people in the world that have there own club and have food plots planted. The only time he actually makes it there is a few weekends a year with wife and two sons. They all enjoy the break and spend hours watching deer most of the time without a shot fired. While seeing countless deer time and time again the man and his two son's harvested 1 buck a piece this past season, 2 were 8 points the other a 9 pt. He's the most caring person I ever met, had an employee have a heart attack at home 8 years ago and could no longer drive a truck. To this day he still sends checks to the family and wants to know how their doing.
I see nothing here that is immoral, illegal or should bother his conscience one bit. It's people like this I would hate to see lose out by having the little time they have enjoying the outdoors scrutinized and subjected to someone else's code of ethics.


Of course I could be biased because he's my boss and has me go down and harvest a few of the does for him each year:w00t:ickle:

 

[ronn]

sounds like a great guy. As for the rest of it, Well stated.