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Bh 209

11080 Views 41 Replies 5 Participants Last post by  Muley
Has anyone used BH209 with T/C Triumph? What load works the best?
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Anyone who knows muzzleloading, would easily place traditions dead last LOL.

They just arent in the game yet. The Vortek is a big step up from what they used to make. But the plastic trigger frame? Nuh uh! Heat, Recoil = its going to break a lot sooner than later.
If I had to rank them out I'd have TC, Traditions, then CVA a distant third. That's just how I see it. Most of all the people I know and hunt with are TC fans, there's a solid historical quality reason for it! To all those in the market for a new/used muzzleloader, you don't have to look no farther than TC line of products. Every TC rifle I have ever owned was a great shooting, accurate, and quality made product, what else needs to be said? Someday CVA will be able to say that, too! Heading to work!
Lets be serious for a minute. Have you owned, or even shot a new 2010 Wolf?

Otherwise your opinion doesn't hold much value.
In all do respect Muley, I hear so much crap about CVA's that someone has to try to balance the facts a bit here. CVA made some of the biggest junk ML out there for many many years, you know it and so do I. I have owned many ML rifles over the years and currently have around 8, and can/will offer some insight as to quality vs quality. I don't own a Wolf model so you get your kudo's for that model. You won't be able to convince me that a low end CVA is anything close to a TC product. Sorry but that's the way it is. Your opinion is just that only your's. We (all) get that much here. We can argue all day and nothing will come of it. Be happy with your new rifle even if it is a CVA. If I had my choise I'd have a $4000.00 custom Hawken in the vault and not worry about standard production rifles. This old topic is going to get interesting again, I think.
Of course we all have our opinion. We also rag on each other in fun, because we like different brands.

In this case i'm not talking about rumors. I talk about my experiences in owning the guns. I know that CVA has had problems in the past. That doesn't mean in applies with the new models.

Even though the Wolf is a lower priced gun. It's CVA's best selling gun. That doesn't work for a gun that isn't any good. No matter what the price is. Buyers/hunters want a gun that works.

The Wolf has the same trigger and receiver that the Optima does. It has a Bergara barrel. It's not stainless steel (which I don't like), and it doesn't have the final polish that the Accura does, but JB will solve that along with some shooting. Mine shot right out of the box. A sub MOA @100yds is impressive to me for an y gun. My Omega never did it after trying a ton of loads. The Wolf did it with the first load.

The Omega had blow back. The Wolf has none. The Omega had creep in the trigger and a 6lb pull. The Wolf has no creep, and a 3 3/4lb pull. Thw Wolf has an excellent recoil pad. No reason to change it. The Omega pad sucked, and I had to buy a Simms Limbsaver pad for it.

The ramrod fell out after every shot on the Omega. The Wolf doesn't. The Omega shot BH 209 with no alterations. So does the Wolf.

The Omega bruised my cheek with hunting loads. It just didn't fit me. The Renegade is even worse. The Wolf fits me perfect, and hunting loads don't bother me. The Wolf is lighter than the Omega, and has less recoil. (?)

For the same price, the Wolf came with a nice gun case, Konus Pro scope, Durasight mounts, and bore sighted.

TC is now owned by S&W. Will the service be the same. There is none right now. They're moving. Not a guess. I've talked to them on the phone. They said I couldn't talk to tech for 3 months.

So, tell me HM. What part of TC is better?
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I forgot. It was impossible to sight in the Omega with the sights it came with. With the rear sight as low as it would go. The gun still shot high. TC was aware of this, and sent me a higher front sight from another model. I had to modify it to fit, but the gun still shot high.

Quality? Not from my view.
Here are some interesting personal facts, I do not know anyone other than those few here that shoot CVA rifles. The absolute clear winner is TC, followed by Traditions, Knight, Lyman. This could be a regional thing, east of the Mississippi thing, historical quality issue and concerns, whatever, the fact is I just don't see people using CVA. If you do great, enjoy the heck out of them just don't believe all the hoopla being thrown around the old mud pit. Here is another interesting fact: the origional Hawken rifles had a rather hourglass bore that constricted in the middle and opened up at both ends. I assume the muzzle open bore was for loading easement. However, accuracy was not compromised. Pretty weird when compared to today's concentric bores.- and those complaining about tight/loose bores.
CVA outsells TC 3 to 1. Knight isnt even in the ball game. Lyman doesnt even have an inline market.
HM..........It really has nothing to do with quality based on who buys what gun. They sold a lot of Edsel's too.:no:

I think CVA sales were hurt by one past gun. Those weren't Bergara barrels. I'm not sure you're aware that some TC owners put Bergara barrels on their guns. It's a fine barrel that isn't going to blow up. CVA guns come with Bergara barrel NOW! Judge the gun we buy NOW!

I'm not knocking TC guns, but they aren't the holy grail either. I had problems with mine. I don't listen to rumors, or what others say about a gun. I experience it for myself, and report what I experienced. Nobody has to believe me, but I just tell the truth with no agenda.

You probably shouldn't talk about a Hawken with me without a little more knowledge. The barrel you describe was a swamped barrel. The outside of the barrel tapered in the middle to save weight. The bore was straight. As far as i know Hawken didn't use a swamped barrel. Maybe on special order, but they're barrels were just straight tapered. Usually from 1 1/8" to 1". Hawken wasn't concerned with weight. Most of the guns weighed from 12-15 lbs.

This is the next Hawken i'm building.

Kit Carson
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Muley the Baird book clearly describes this barrel and it was not a swamped barrel. The author felt it was a more norm configuration. I don't need your blessing to discuss Hawken projects I'm sure you're not that old to have been there! I'm still a Green Mountain rifle barrel proponet. Remember the old Green River barrels?
FG the message was about quality not specific models. Lyman builds a fine mass produced Hawken/plains rifle way better than anything CVA ever produced in that style. You keep trying but come up empty. TC's Penn Hunter once again showed TC's quality in producing a really great ML and used some nice walnut something CVA didn't do very much of.
I read the book as well and remember it. The writer at the time did have some good info but now days, his work is often questions and shown to be inaccurate.

A darn good book though, i loved all the pictures.
CVA Mountain rifle, CVA Hawken, these were 2 of their best sellers in the traditional market. Nothing wrong with them at all, except for that orange stain they used!
FG just told me about that barrel. I can't believe I never ran across it before. I thought I had all the Hawken books. My interest has always been the fur trade era of pre 1840. Was this a later barrel they tried?

It's hard to stay up on all Hawken guns, because they were all different.

Yes, I am that old. Sam was a good buddy. :yes:
Questioned by who? I hope not Muley!:w00t: I can't think of another writer who put more time and effort to examine/report and debunk myths regarding the Hawken Rifles.
FG the message was about quality not specific models. Lyman builds a fine mass produced Hawken/plains rifle way better than anything CVA ever produced in that style. You keep trying but come up empty. TC's Penn Hunter once again showed TC's quality in producing a really great ML and used some nice walnut something CVA didn't do very much of.
Lyman doesn't build any guns. They're made by an Italian company Interarms. They also make guns for Cabelas. I bought one of those Lyman Hawken guns, and sent it back it had so many problems. Others have done the same thing. Quality has gone downhill lately. Sort of like TC. :sad:
FG I'm well aware of those two models of CVA they weren't even close to TC quality. They were at best a poor man's budget compromise purchase that would allow him/her to get into the ML hunting world. Please don't tell me they were high quality rifles, my stomach is turning now. Whats the used price market value between the two? About $100.00. If I sat 10 used TC Hawkens on a table and 10 used CVA hawkens on another table and allowed ten people to choose just one, I would bet the result would be 8 TC to 2 CVA again just an opinion form a TC kind of guy!
one of their weakest areas " lyman" is their stocks. They either crack by the tang or at the toe of the stock. Warranty doesnt cover them either. I don't understand why they only come with a 1 year warranty.

My dad has a cabelas hawken and thats a good shootin mofro! 90gr 3f goex and a 250gr Thor shoots awesome in it. He prefers his Apex though LOL.
Heading out to the pool to cool off! I'm sure we'll continue our nice discussion later. :nerd:
Ok but leave the g string in the dresser! No one wants to see them pale white cottage cheese lookin cheeks LOL
HM....I'll give you the TC sidelocks. They're good guns, but still have faults.

I'm not sure what weird human form designed the Renegade stock, but there was a long thread on another forum about the Renegade stock banging their cheek. Mine was awful for me.

Other than that. It was a fine shooting gun with a good lock and trigger.

It's the only other TC i've owned besides the Omega.

Neither impressed me like the little Wolf I have now. Which i'm sure is going to put elk in my freezer in the future. :yes:
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