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post #1 of 18 (permalink) Old 01-28-2011, 04:00 PM Thread Starter
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Post Did anyone see this

I only caught a little of this show but it was on MSNBC. Apparently about Remington covering up accidental discharges from the REm model 700 and some of the tragedies because of this.Anyone see this?
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post #2 of 18 (permalink) Old 01-28-2011, 04:01 PM
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I saw that a few months ago.
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post #3 of 18 (permalink) Old 01-28-2011, 06:09 PM
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maybe why Rem. has been putting their name on every piece of garbage under the sun like Winchester is doing probably to pay the lawsuits
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post #4 of 18 (permalink) Old 01-28-2011, 07:30 PM
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I caught it on cable last week. I think most companies have something to hide in their past! I own several great Remington products and cannot cut them up too much, however, if the deaths or injuries are true then Remington will be paying out big bucks!
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post #5 of 18 (permalink) Old 01-29-2011, 12:00 AM
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In one of the recent "American Rifleman" magazines (Jan2011 in fact), there was an interesting article about that very subject. Yes, there were a few Remington models that they were having issues with. I visit Remington's website on a regular basis and have put their warning/recall notices out in one or more of these very forums. It's not like Remington was trying to hide their mistakes. They made a "bad batch" and knew it.

My question to everyone is this - How many (millions of) rifles has Remington made over the years (and sold to the government and law enforcement in many varieties) that have never had these issues? CNBC (my opinion here) gave a very lopsided/single sided view of the issue. They gave the lawyer/plaintiff point of view without attempting to offer a counterpoint from opposing sides (like the NRA). Remington wisely refused to comment knowing that anything said in front of the camera would have been cut and sliced to fit MSNBC's point of view and not be shown in its entirety. So called "journalism" or "factual reporting" like this can be expected from "news" networks such as CNN (Communist News Networks) and the like.

For anyone interested in the article, it's called -- Trial Lawyers, Guns, Money & Ratings: CNBC's "Remington Under Fire" and starts on Page 44 of the Jan 2011 issue of American Rifleman magazine. To me, the best part of the article is the final paragraph that reads -- quote --

"Journalism should be about getting to the heart of the story and reporting the truth. But so long as trial lawyers stand to profit and a desperate broadcaster looks to boost sagging ratings, the cycle of inflammatory reporting will likely continue, and the only place the "truth" will be exposed is in the courtroom." -- unquote --

I own two Remington's, neither of them a bolt action Model 700 or 710. Both of them are over 50 years old and semi-auto or auto-loading. Both (since the are auto-loading) would probably fit into the category of an "assault rifle" except that they only have an internal 4-round magazine capacity. My grandpappy, who bought them and taught me about firearms and firearm safety, told me to always respect a rifle when it was in my hands, loaded or unloaded, and to always treat it like it was loaded. (That means always be aware of where the muzzle end is pointing!)

Accidents happen -- or as the saying goes, Feces Occurs. Yup, the rifle had an unintentional discharge. But where was the muzzle pointing when the mama was unloading her rifle?? Had it not been pointing at her 9 year old son, would there even be a story here? I'm not trying to lessen by any means the pain and suffering that family must be feeling with the loss of their son, but will going after the gun manufacturer on TV and in court bring him back?

When in Iraq, every time that we left base, rounds were "locked and loaded". The first stop when arriving at our destination was the clearing barrels. Okay, to clear a magazine fed rifle or pistol, what's the obvious first thing to do -- drop the magazine, then lock the bolt the the rear, ejecting the round that was in the chamber, lock bolt to rear of weapon to visually verify nothing in the chamber. You'd be surprised at the number of soldiers, NCO's, and mainly officers, who simply could not grasp that concept.
Duh, grasp handle, duh, eject round in chamber, duh, let go of handle, duh, eject magazine, duh, point weapon into clearing barrel, duh, pull trigger to show nothing in chamber. "BANG" Can anyone guess how many times that has happened? Can anyone guess how many times that happened to field grade officers?
It's also called an unintentional discharge, something that the military highly frowns upon. When it happens to a lower enlisted soldier, the soldier and his NCO chain of command gets to visit the commander with the soldier likely losing money from his next paycheck. Do you think the same thing happens when it is a field grade officer? I'm just going to leave that question unanswered and let y'all think about it for a while.

All right, I'll get off my soapbox now before I turn this post into a novel.

What I would like to challenge the readers of this post to do is compare the article in American Rifleman to the presentation by CNBC. See which of the two present both sides of the issue. Then come back to this forum and tell us what you have to say about the both of them.

Is that too much to ask?
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post #6 of 18 (permalink) Old 01-29-2011, 05:41 AM
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I received an email from Remington after this show aired on CNBC. Like rdrader has stated it was a very one sided arguement from the journalism side.



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post #7 of 18 (permalink) Old 01-29-2011, 07:38 AM Thread Starter
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In no way was i slamming Remington i dont own any of there products but with the exception of Savage it seems most gun companies esp.remington & winchester the product is not what is used to be.I think Savage has brought there quality up.
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post #8 of 18 (permalink) Old 01-29-2011, 08:38 AM
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nor was I
I just can't figure out whay a company that has a reputation like Remington & winchester would put their names on garbage Remingtons cameras & feeders are the exact same thing as wildgame innovations
I own one remington ot is a 1942-45 20 semi "the sportsman" & I love it
but if I was just getting into hunting didn't know bands & purchased one of these cheap camera or feeders ect.... I would tell you I would never buy one of their guns
I know this is off the subject but just explaining my other response
I have nothing against Rem. they are fine products & Don't believe everything you see or read

something like this happend with the Ruger LCP (dropped & fired) also nobody got hurt but they recalled all & reworked the guns. Ruger does drop test to standards (think it is dropped from five feet or so) but someone supposedly was working on their roof or somewhere high like that gun fell & fired.
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post #9 of 18 (permalink) Old 01-29-2011, 11:58 AM
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I've seen the NBC show and done a good bit of research myself on the subject. The Rem M710 has nothing to do with the subject, by the way. For those of you who may not know, the Rem 700, 600 & 660 were/are the models most affected by the "defect". Also, for those who may not know the fire control system used to work in a very different manner, when it was first produced in the new (1962) M700 and the Models 600 & 660, made in the 1960s as well.

The big difference? The rifle could NOT be unloaded with the safety in the SAFE position as it can now (fire system modified in the early '80s). This meant (means) that rifles of that era had to be both loaded and unloaded with the safety in the FIRE position. The rifle could not be unloaded with the safety left on SAFE as this locks the bolt closed. The problem identified in some rifles was that it (they) would fire, unexpectedly, simply by placing the safety into the FIRE position. Think about that for a moment.

The Models 600 & 660 had a full recall issued and production was ultimately halted on those rifles in the early '70s. The recall is still in effect and Remington will still modify those fire control systems for free if you return the rifle to Remington. The reason I know this is because I owned a M660 that had an AD (accidental discharge). The consequence? Nada, because it was pointed towards the ground and went off, firing into the ground. This rifle was being handled by the safest hunter I know, my Father.

He finished unloading it, handed it to me and never touched that rifle again. I did some research, identified the defect and sent the rifle to Remington who then fixed it for free. Many Model 600s & 660s were identified as having this problem/defect. They use(d) the same fire control system as the M700.

The change to the fire control system that allows the gun to be loaded and unloaded with the safety in the SAFE position means that millions of rifles, manufactured over the last 25+ years no longer need to be held loaded and then the safety moved to FIRE every time the rifle was used or even simply loaded. This difference is staggering and allows much safer handling, defect or no defect, obviously.

Here's another article that might be of some interest to some. Page one here is something of a re-hash of the NBC show's content. However page two here has some very interesting information that those interested in understanding the idea there may be a serious problem should most certainly read (note the date this article originally ran!):

Hunting and Shooting - CBS News Targets Remington Model 700 rifle as Having a Defective Safety
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post #10 of 18 (permalink) Old 01-29-2011, 05:25 PM
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From the article mentioned in the previous post --

"Two major rules of gun safety were omitted from the story, and were broken in the incident:

1) Always keep a gun pointed in a safe direction.
2) Never depend on the safety."

Enough said on the subject! (said enough in my previous post)
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