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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 02-11-2009, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by BruceBruce1959 View Post
It all boils down to Legal vs. Ethical.
the following is a clip from the Hunt Fair Chase website.


LEGAL VERSUS ETHICAL
Hunting is an intensely personal experience fraught with personal choices. Consider the contrast between what is legal and what is ethical. It is difficult to conceive of a situation in hunting where the commission of an illegal act could be considered ethical. But, the inverse is not only possible, but also common. In short, legality describes the outside boundaries within which ethical choices are made.

For example, some hunters take shots at deer in excess of 300 yards. They have rifles and ammunition capable of accuracy at such ranges. They practice at those ranges and are capable and confident of almost certain clean kills. Other hunters would never think of taking a shot at this distance. It's legal. There is nothing in the game regulations about maximum allowable distances yet many will not take that shot. Why? Some do not have experience with this type of shooting. Others feel the risk is too high for wounding and therefore the practice is unethical. Others might consider that shooting at such ranges, even with a high probability of success, is simply too great an advantage over the prey and would choose to stalk in closer.

The point is, there are many things in the hunting and habitat management world that are legal, yet can be considered by some to be unethical. Again, it is left for each individual to set his or her own ethical standards. Hopefully, all of our collective decisions will shine positively on hunting, management and its traditions.

I think this brings up some good points but when you start talking ethics in hunting it is such a grey area. Whose ethics are we talking about? I hear and see the word ethical brought up all the time as it relates to hunting but it is always some vague notion about what is and what is not ethical. If it is legal bait game in your state does it make it ethical to do so?

My point is an act can not be unethical unless there is a previously agreed upon standard of conduct e.g.; a code of ethics. If I join a club that has rules that say you can't shoot any bucks less than eight points and I shoot a six pointer that would be unethical because I agreed to the rules of the club. If someone hunts over bait in a state that allows baiting how can this be considered unethical? I may think it would be unethical but it's not, that is only my opinion, that hunter is following the rules and has not agreed to any other standard.

But yet you hear other hunters constantly calling legal activity unethical when in fact it is not. You donít sign a code of conduct to buy a license only have the state law to guide you. Our view of someone else's legal activity is purely our opinion and most times that is best kept to ourselves.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 02-11-2009, 10:37 AM
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"You don’t sign a code of conduct to buy a license only have the state law to guide you."actually you do when you buy the license it states that you will behave in an ethical manner
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Genesis 27:3 "The thinking deer hunter should mature through three phases during his hunting life. First phase, "I need to kill a deer." Second phase, I want to harvest a nice deer. And last phase, we must manage this resource so our children and their children can experience the grand tradition of good deer hunting." - Jim Slinsky

Last edited by joel the signman; 02-11-2009 at 11:20 AM.
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Old 02-11-2009, 10:55 AM
Hunting Man Hunting Man is offline
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Buckshot, I hope we never loose the right to give an opinion and I hope there are never any consequences for not accepting one, but having an issue openly debated with the intent to share thoughts on any given subject, is in my modest opinion, a highly acceptable/desirable forum. I hope we can agree to that and I hope that other subjects will be raised and discussed just as the baiting issue was.
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Old 02-11-2009, 11:33 AM
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First, I think (in part from what I am reading here) most hunters have long since become comfortable that their hunting, especially when truly associated with re-balancing populations that man has sent out of balance, is correct, constructive and ethical. In the process they have become almost immune to what they perceive the non-hunters think. Yet there remains a level of defensiveness around the morality of hunting that varies from hunter to hunter.

Well if youíre baiting I'll bite. I hunt because I have always hunted; my father, his father and his father's father hunted. There is no moral or ethical decision involved with it, it is what it is. The act of taking an animals life for food or sport is of no more consequence to me than swatting a fly. I don't care what non hunters think about me or my hunting as I am certain they are wrong about a whole host of other issues. Their sanitized version of reality so is perverted by the schools they attend the news media they watch that they have no concept of the real world and the dangers that are truly out there. I hope it never comes but someday, and maybe soon, the real world is going to come crashing in and I wonder if faced with the prospect of starvation or killing an animal for food what their morals would be then?

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Originally Posted by connecticut View Post
But here's the real point. The true focus and passion of the non-hunter is around the proliferation of guns and has little to do with the morality of hunting. The non-hunter sees, or reads about, guns killing people in their neighborhoods or in another area of town and they feel there should be no right to have a gun when the only plausible target is another human being.
The hunter believes they have a constitutional right to bear arms and, via the ARA, seeks to protect that right and with a not unreasonable fear of creeping control, shows no willingness to understand the fears and plight of city dwellers.
So, in summary, the non-hunters negative view of hunting is based in part on a non-understanding of the value of hunting and their true passion is directed against their perception that hunters have unfairly blocked their ability to control guns in situations where only humans are targets.
So now we can get down to it. Guns do not kill people by themselves, when a murder occurs they do not put the weapon on trial the put the person on trial that committed the murder. Anti gun people want to blame the criminal act on the gun and not the person who committed the crime. If all guns were removed from us would there be no more killing? Of course not. But as long as the problem can be placed on the gun we donít have to examine the real social issue at the heart of most crime. Itís not that I donít appreciate the plight of ďcity dwellersĒ but the notion that they would be safer with out guns is false. Itís not that we believe we have a constitutional right, we do have a right to keep and bear arms, and it is no longer up for debate.


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Originally Posted by connecticut View Post
Now, if you want to deal with some other behavior that I either don't understand or find irrational and comment as you will here's a few thoughts.
Why and what is the defense of killing: frogs, squirrels, chipmunks, raccoons, possum and many bird species in large numbers? .
I reaaly don't know what to say to that as I don't know that I have ever met a Chipmunk hunter and I'm not much on eating opossum.

Sorry to get in on your thread so late but better late than never. Anyway welcome to the site from Tennessee.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 02-11-2009, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by joel the signman View Post
"You donít sign a code of conduct to buy a license only have the state law to guide you."actually you do when you buy the license it states that you will behave in an ethical manner
I guess so in NY but not here, that does go to the point I'm making though; when you agree to hunt in an ethical manner does it go on to state exactly what an "ethical maner" is? If not whose ethics are you bound to? As you can see on this debate there are many versions of "ethical".
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Old 02-11-2009, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Hunting Man View Post
Buckshot, I hope we never loose the right to give an opinion and I hope there are never any consequences for not accepting one, but having an issue openly debated with the intent to share thoughts on any given subject, is in my modest opinion, a highly acceptable/desirable forum. I hope we can agree to that and I hope that other subjects will be raised and discussed just as the baiting issue was.
I hear what your saying I don't what to stop debate on any issue. My only issue is in calling something or somebody unethical when in fact there is no basis to do so.
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Old 02-12-2009, 10:05 AM
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I understand your concern!
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Old 02-12-2009, 07:36 PM
bowhuntin' soldier bowhuntin' soldier is offline
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the definition of ethical from dictionary.com and other sources are very close is
1.pertaining to or dealing with morals or the principles of morality; pertaining to right and wrong in conduct.2.being in accordance with the rules or standards for right conduct or practice, esp. the standards of a profession: It was not considered ethical for physicians to advertise.
but still we do the 180 degree turn back to the red words pertaining to right and wrong. other than state and local laws who is to say what is right and wrong. or do we rely too much on the thought that the governments are the only ones with the ability to define right and wrong??
i think as hunters we should be able to distinguish that baiting is like slipping a woman a a love potion in that were possible making it almost impossible to go away from what is in front of them, deer must eat and if they have a never ending supply of food in the same spot as we all know they will come back to that spot habitually. so in my opinion baiting is taking the hunting portion out of hunting its more like sitting and waiting to kill things. as my step dad always said your not gonna shoot a dear every time you go out or they would call it killing not hunting.
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Old 02-22-2009, 04:07 PM
Charlotte Charlotte is offline
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Default it's a shame they're...

It's a shame they are so destructive at times. I have a shallow wooded area right behind my home and often see deer here, within 50 feet of my back door. I've seen as many as 7 at once, from very little ones to adults. I can see why you wouldn't want them to stay, but I do enjoy mine. Good Luck!
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