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Is Trophy Scoring Fair?

11K views 37 replies 10 participants last post by  pdstan512 
#1 ·
It upsets me to think that many hunters, (mostly the self proclaimed "Professionals") go and pay to hunt for animals, mostly Whitetail Deer at some Outfitters that's been raising and feeding deer specifically for massive antler development and THEN,
has the nerve to SCORE those deer for B&C or P&Y entries. How Sickening is that?
Shouldn't B&C or P&Y be strictly for animals that have been hunted by fair chase?
ANYBODY can go and BUY an Outfitter raised Deer BUT unless it's been harvested from the great Wild of Outdoors and not from caged or fenced in properties, It should have no place in B&C or P&Y and Hunters should start making demands to have those entries removed or Create other categories for those type of Entries,
Like ("B&D", Bought Deer) or the one I see as most fitting a category called ("P&P", Professionally Purchased)
The self proclaimed pro's should lower their heads in shame for entering outfitter raised Animals into either of those Registers, You would think by now a "PRO" would know the difference's between a real Trophy and a PRIZE. How's everyone else feel about this?
 
#2 ·
i know that that calling picking out a deer and paying to shoot it is nothing more than shopping.It sure aint hunting..sure some people don't have the time to hunt for a trophy but those same people should be happy just being out there.thats the way it goes sometimes(most times) you don't get anything .I agree with ya bruce that's not what the record books guys meant when they started.maybe a separate category is needed or an asterisk next to the name.sound familiar .just like the baseball guys.i think this is a problem in the way Americans think bigger is better and the being famous is so important.some people will do anything to be in the books they take short cuts(steroids) to avoid years of sweat and hard work..oh well i'll get down off my soap box
 
#3 · (Edited)
Bruce, I agree with you on that, but I thought that the B&C book and SCI book required that the game is taken by fair case methods. Of course, people could and I guess do, lie about where they got the animal.
Here in Montana, we had elk farms where "hunters" could pick out an elk to shoot. A few years back we, hunters and non-hunters, decided to ban them, and that's just what we did with a referendum and vote which made it illegal.
The trouble is many (most?) hunters get so caught up in the ego and competition factors that the actual hunting becomes a secondary issue. The result is all sorts of cheating - buying heads, stealing heads, poaching, you name it. Maybe it would be better if there were NO record books. Really, what's the point?
Seems to me that the honor should go to the animal, anyway, and not the hunter. How about a record book that lists the animal, but doesn't name the hunter. THAT would separate the real hunters from the guys with big heads and little "you-know-whats".
 
#26 ·
:goodposting:Excellent post is more like it:thumbup:
 
#4 ·
well , I really see what your sayin but, that deer tthat my little brother shot was taken on a high fence ranch but we didnt Pick it out and one of our friends is possobly going to buy that ranch and said we could hunt on it, but really the deer was taken in fair chase, because really we were not gaurantied that deer or well we had never seen it before, but it was taken on a high fence but the guy has one of those elk farms and has axis and black buck, on their and isnt doing anything with steriods or drugs to the deer to make them big but he really is just making the genetics there good by years of shooting the more smaller and bad geneticid bucks, is that bad in your oppinion? or do you mean like the ones who have pics of deer for you to choose and charge you 5000 for one or 10000 for another?
and the person who might buy it said it would be cool to have some elk on there but not really alot maby 5 bulls and 10 cows and only let family or really close friends shoot those, and im gonna kind of change the subject of him onto my oppinion of why some people do shoot elk of of elk farms, Instead of "shopping" for an elk for 8000 you could most likly go to colorado for 4000 and go up on horseback and have an great adventure, for half the price but if some people never got the chance to do that when their body could and when they were fit and young enough but now they are older less fit to do that they could go shoot an elk with out putting they body and health at risk and go "shopping" for one, now im not saying thats good to do but i think its ok if you are older and less fit but they can score it to see how big itis but the shouldnt enter it in any competiotions. so tell me what you think about please
 
#5 · (Edited)
pdsatn makes some good points. There are fences and then there are FENCES. I've never hunted those big deer management ranches in Texas, but my understanding is that even though they are fenced, some of them are thousands of acres. Of course, any place that guarantees an animal or has a no-kill-no-pay policy has to be suspect. There's no way anyone could guarantee a really wild, free-roaming animal and still stay in business.
As an older hunter with less legs and lungs than in the past, the idea of an easier hunt has some appeal. After all, I believe I've paid my dues during many days (and years) in freezing cold, snow and rain, etc. But even so, I think I'd still prefer fair chase hunting. However, I would welcome a setup where a certain state hunting district (NO FENCES PLEASE) would be reserved for us older guys just to cut down on the traffic and give us an equal opportunity. On the other hand, I like hunting with you young guys, so you can drag my animals for me... just kidding!
For you young and older hunters alike, if you are pondering the meaning of ethical hunting (and you SHOULD be), please get yourself a copy of Jim Posewitz's book, Beyond Fair Chase. You can get it in paperback for about 7 bucks at Amazon.com.
 
#7 · (Edited)
I know that boone and crocket wont take an animal that was shot in a high fence area and im pretty sure pope and young wont either. here in ohio we have a club called the buckey big buck club and they wont take them either,and shouldnt in my opinion. shooting an animal raised in a pen is a no brainer. as far as high fences go,you can control the genetics,the rut by culling does,body size with supplementel feeding and patterns with food plots. now dont get me wrong im not against high fence hunting but its not the same as nonfence and is fairer but not the same as fairchase. in my opinion.
 
#8 ·
you're looking past the point I'm making. I'm talking about "Antler Scoring" ...
I know there's always going to be outfitters offering "hunts for money" BUT the point I'm expressing is,
those animals should not be allowed into B&C or P&Y registers, that's all I'm saying But If a hunter wants to do a pay for hunt that's fine,
but if he gets a Trophy Scoring Buck while on that paid hunt, it shouldn't be allowed into P&Y or B&C. that's the point I'm making.
I hope this gives a clearer understanding on the point I'm making.
 
#11 ·
P & C and B & C have pretty strict rules. i was looking on there at some records and they list their rules and also have one that is pretty open ended and they say that if they deam it an unfair chase they won't let it in. that was my take on it anyways
 
#12 ·

Yes Berk I did see your post but the sad part is, those Organizations do accept questionable entry's. let me give you just one Example Look at the second entry, It was PICKED UP, by the MO. Dept. of Cons. Is that Fair Chase? lol I don't think so, and that's a world record. Now that's just ONE Example Advertised at their own site but I betcha once it's brought to their attention and it's noted that it was commented on, it will magically become hidden from public view.. that's how those sort of things happen.
 
#13 ·
Good Posts by all. Fenced in deer is not fair chase. And in my book paying money to hunt bucks in a non-fenced deer farm is a little suspect in my book. I am not downing the older guys or handicap hunters that hunt these farms at all. But your everyday healthy hunter should feel a little guilty about shooting a massive buck that he paid high dollar to shoot. Fenced or not fenced!!! I have always thought it would be cool to go to a ranch and just shoot a management deer but I have wondered if I would get any enjoyment out of it at all. I can just see it now. I would have it mounted on my wall and some friends would come over. "See that buck I shot him on a paid manangement hunt up north on a deer farm." I would not be proud of that. :bag:

I do know B&C and P&Y are not suppose to have high fence deer in their record buck. I do see what your saying about the deer that was found though Bruce. They have another scoring system for high fenced deer. I think it is called S&Y or S&I or something close to that.

Just enjoy hunting in its purest form. Whether it be a doe or whatever.
 
#14 ·
Yeah I see the advertising in books, TV, and online for the outfitters that state "we grow and manage only the healthiest and biggest herds on our 16,000 acre RANCH, and we have a 100% kill rate." (end quote). Yup give us $2,500 and well practically bring the deer to you and put it in your truck. Jeez I think that most of the TV shows are on ranches and farms.
 
#16 ·
Yeah I see the advertising in books, TV, and online for the outfitters that state "we grow and manage only the healthiest and biggest herds on our 16,000 acre RANCH, and we have a 100% kill rate." (end quote). Yup give us $2,500 and well practically bring the deer to you and put it in your truck. Jeez I think that most of the TV shows are on ranches and farms.
any thing killed on these ranches wont go in the record books because theire not free rang fairchase deer.
 
#15 ·
i understand your argument and i agree to a point. as far deer that are found goes it should be in. let me explain. when deer are entered into a record book its the deer not the hunter that is the trophey. example,the hole in the horn buckm was found along the railroad tracks here in ohio. the deer is massive, wasnt raised to be that way its just a free ranging deer,but because it didnt die at the hands of a hunter doesnt make less of a trophy. remember the point of these organizations is celebrate trophy free ranging animals not the way they died.
 
#17 ·
well I see what your sayin ya know I actually enjoyed being on a no fenced ranch but I mean if our friend buys it we can hunt there for free and well you cant really turn that down and the owner said he had never seen the deer my little bro shot in the 7 years hes been there but most the time we sat there you could predict where the deer you saw would be the next morning cause all they do is run around in circiles and it is really likly you would see some deer youve seen before and I miss hunting on a no fence ranch because allthough it was like clock work what time and wich way the deer would come in and leave there was variety every hunt but that ranch was 10 sections and then when we hunted a 1 section ranch we always saw the same deer exept the last day of the season my dad killed a prettynice 9 point,so thats what I think
 
#18 ·
well I see what your sayin ya know I actually enjoyed being on a no fenced ranch but I mean if our friend buys it we can hunt there for free and well you cant really turn that down and the owner said he had never seen the deer my little bro shot in the 7 years hes been there but most the time we sat there you could predict where the deer you saw would be the next morning cause all they do is run around in circiles and it is really likly you would see some deer youve seen before and I miss hunting on a no fence ranch because allthough it was like clock work what time and wich way the deer would come in and leave there was variety every hunt but that ranch was 10 sections and then when we hunted a 1 section ranch we always saw the same deer exept the last day of the season my dad killed a prettynice 9 point,so thats what I think
your a luckey man to have such a nice place to hunt.wether you kill a big deer that can go into the record book or not its the expierence that you will remember. i rember the first deer that i took with a bow(doe) and i will never forget it.that was a trophey moment to me.
 
#20 ·
It upsets me to think that many hunters, (mostly the self proclaimed "Professionals") go and pay to hunt for animals, mostly Whitetail Deer at some Outfitters that's been raising and feeding deer specifically for massive antler development and THEN,
has the nerve to SCORE those deer for B&C or P&Y entries. How Sickening is that?
Shouldn't B&C or P&Y be strictly for animals that have been hunted by fair chase?
ANYBODY can go and BUY an Outfitter raised Deer BUT unless it's been harvested from the great Wild of Outdoors and not from caged or fenced in properties, It should have no place in B&C or P&Y and Hunters should start making demands to have those entries removed or Create other categories for those type of Entries,
Like ("B&D", Bought Deer) or the one I see as most fitting a category called ("P&P", Professionally Purchased)
The self proclaimed pro's should lower their heads in shame for entering outfitter raised Animals into either of those Registers, You would think by now a "PRO" would know the difference's between a real Trophy and a PRIZE. How's everyone else feel about this?




I AGREE 100%
 
#21 ·
One of the best places to hunt really big whitetails in the world is about an hour's drive from where I live along the Shields River, (Montana) but most of the good hunting land is leased by an outfitter who charges thousands of dollars to bow hunt there. He puts up tree stands, and has everything setup for mostly out-of-state hunters who want a trophy. These are free-ranging deer and there are no fences that any fawn can't jump over. It pisses me off that so much of that area is not available to the average hunter, but it seems like good old American business to me. Anyway, I might be getting a little off the subject, but do you think these deer should be entered in the book?
 
#23 ·
Onehorse, My Guess is there's more being offered for that paid hunt more than just available land with a tree stand placement,, my guess is the deer are being grain fed full of specially formulated nutrients and minerals that promote antler growth possibly some steroid content to help develop larger body weight also.
IF it's just stand placement and available hunting land, I don't know why anyone would pay thousands of Dollars for that, my guess is they wouldn't... SO with that being Said I would say NO those Deer should not be entered into any record book. I think a Free ranging Deer is a deer that, lives where it wants to, travels where it wants to and Eats what it wants to. Feeding Deer on a daily basis is almost as bad as Fences (not natural growth)

TIMBERGHOST, you better hang onto that DISCO BALL todays youth may bring the disco craze back into stye, IF they do you'll be all prepared to boogie on down.. LOL :pickle: :pickle:
 
#25 ·
Bruce, I'm not defending these Shields River outfitters, but the genes and food sources out here produce really big bucks. There is lots of agricutural land where deer can eat everything they need for maximum growth. These fields are not set up as feed lots or attractants for deer, but as a matter of fact, draw and produce big deer without that goal in mind. A person would only have to control a large tract of land and limited hunting access, to easily claim trophy size deer. I do all my hunting on public land and always get at least a 4x4 with a 15 inch or better spread - it's not hard. These deer are 2 1/2 year olds - the genes and food are that good. If I had enough patience and discipline, I could be shooting much larger deer. So, although I hate to say it, I believe that in this part of the country, these outfitters are probably not feeding steroids, etc. to produce big deer. That would not be good business sense as they would be wasting their money on unnecessary expenses.
Another point on "pay-to-hunt" practices:
In Montana we have the Block Management Program where the state takes money from licenses fees of nonresidents and pays it to land owners to allow the public to access their ranches to hunt. So, in effect, the ranchers are being paid to let people hunt, just like the outfitters are getting paid. The only difference is that the ranchers are paid indirectly by the hunters while the outfitters are paid directly. So, if I set up on a piece of this land that borders an alfalfa field and get a really big buck (I've at least seen them), would that buck be OK in your Record Book?
 
#27 ·
I would say its no problem cuz its fair chase.Im glad to see everyone voicing there opions in a non argumentive manner .THANK YOU .like one person said theres fences and then theres FENCES ifor one prefer to bust my butt hunting state land going toe to toe with deer that have seen it all.i hunted private property and it seemed that the deer knew where the stands were.On top of that some people adopted the idea that they could shoot anything ,no tagging ,letting the meat go to waste.I cant be friends with people like that and i still am in torment over wether or not i should turn my so called hunting buddies in.Im a meat hunter am im proud of of the yearling does that feed my family.Ive yet to find a recipie for antlers.Fair chase is the only deer that should go in the books .Personaly ,Ive never even opened either book .Who cares.Its like comparing the size of your ,.....shoe .Thats my two cents
 
#28 ·
Joel, you've raised another really good issue. (Man, you never know where these things are going!) The idea of buddies who cheat, break the rules/laws, whatever, is a difficult one. Personally, I try to avoid guys who hunt in unethical ways. It's pretty easy to tell who they are - usually bragging a lot - so much so that eventually they slip and admit something that gives them away as hunter "slobs". On the other hand, if you have a long time buddy who makes an honest mistake and doesn't break the rules as a practice, I suppose I wouldn't turn him in. I once hunted regularly with a friend who, on one occasion accidentally shot two antelope from the same herd when he only had one tag. When the goat he shot at the first time didn't fall, he assumed a miss and took a second shot. Anyway, when the smoke cleared, there were two dead antelope. When this mistake happened the next year, that was the last time I hunted with him. He's still my friend, but that's all (not a hunting buddy). Honestly, I believe these were both mistakes, but showed a tendency to use bad judgement, which made me a little uneasy about hunting with him.
 
#29 ·
Well said Mr. Signman, I love the smaller deer better than the biguns cuz they're better tasting, easier to carry/drag, and mostly, my family and friends love the grilled sweet meat during get togethers and picnics and stuff. I like to watch my cousin and his dad stand over the grill and argue who's the better cook/griller but I draw the line when they start talking about "how to hunt and how to do this and that" but they never been out in the wilderness a day in their lives. OFF TOPIC BUT I THOUGHT I'D SHARE IT WITH YALL.
 
#36 ·
This has been a great topic, so I will join in. Official trophies should be fair chase only. I don't believe that a 20,000 acre Texas ranch would not be considered fair chase, fences or no fences. In Ohio or PA where I hunt 100 acres might be a large tract of property. Everyone has a desicion to make regarding what rules they will hunt/live by. Having the oppertunity to enjoy open range expensive hunts where the outfitter does everything except pull the trigger is still a hunt for someone. All animals submitted for BC&PY should be put into a catagory relating to how it was taken. The famous Hole in the Horn buck should be submitted as a found deer and be ranked in that section. Fenced in deer then should be put into their section of the records. You will never get everyone to be honest or play by the rules. Hunters must look in the mirror and examine ourselves to see where we fall in the great game of life, how do we rank ourselves in the fair chase of the great outdoors. This may be a bit off the subject but ethics is a major problem today and needs cleaned up by teaching the youth the right ways of life and as hunters. Maybe then some of these issues would be looked upon in a different light. Happy Holidays to all!!!
 
#37 ·
For Hunting Man

You seem like a guy who really understands the meaning of ethics. In a sense, it has a lot to do with what a hunter should see in the mirror when he or she walks by it... not what other people see when they look at the hunter. After all, they may think they are looking at a great hunter, while the hunter only sees the reflection of someone who has cheated, misrepresented, and shown disrespect for the animal. Please look at my recommended read, Beyond Fair Chase, (described in the Lodge on this site). It should be REQUIRED reading for everyone who takes a Hunter/Firearm Safety course.
 
#38 ·
All of these posts are great but now I feel kind of bad because I do hunt over corn feeders and Im going to be hunting on that Highfence I loved hunting fair chase but well I dont really have the money to join a lease and Im not really a meat hunter but im not a trophy hunter either I dont shoot the small bucks Ill shoot 8 points and up cause I want to give the deer a chance to grow but I will shoot does if we are out of venison and Ill shoot the little stub spikes cause they wont get much big so um should I feel bad cause i feel like im hunting against everyones oppinions please tell me if its ok or not thanks
 
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