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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 12-21-2007, 06:05 PM
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One of the best places to hunt really big whitetails in the world is about an hour's drive from where I live along the Shields River, (Montana) but most of the good hunting land is leased by an outfitter who charges thousands of dollars to bow hunt there. He puts up tree stands, and has everything setup for mostly out-of-state hunters who want a trophy. These are free-ranging deer and there are no fences that any fawn can't jump over. It pisses me off that so much of that area is not available to the average hunter, but it seems like good old American business to me. Anyway, I might be getting a little off the subject, but do you think these deer should be entered in the book?
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Old 12-21-2007, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by BruceBruce1959 View Post
Man timberghost the 80's called they want their hunt rate schedule back LOL
Some ranches now charge between 7 and 10 thousand Dollars to harvest trophy Whitetail Bucks.
Just this morning I was reading an advertisement about a Ranch that wants 7500.00 Dollars to kill a 170 class B&C Deer. isn't that disgusting?

WOW I had no clue it was that much, that's insane! I was just guessing the price of a dream hunt. I guess I'll never ever ever get to do that. I'll just stay where I'm at and keep hunting P/Y spikers LOL. I'll give their hunt rate schedule back but I'm keeping the disco ball LOL.
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Old 12-21-2007, 08:11 PM
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Onehorse, My Guess is there's more being offered for that paid hunt more than just available land with a tree stand placement,, my guess is the deer are being grain fed full of specially formulated nutrients and minerals that promote antler growth possibly some steroid content to help develop larger body weight also.
IF it's just stand placement and available hunting land, I don't know why anyone would pay thousands of Dollars for that, my guess is they wouldn't... SO with that being Said I would say NO those Deer should not be entered into any record book. I think a Free ranging Deer is a deer that, lives where it wants to, travels where it wants to and Eats what it wants to. Feeding Deer on a daily basis is almost as bad as Fences (not natural growth)

TIMBERGHOST, you better hang onto that DISCO BALL todays youth may bring the disco craze back into stye, IF they do you'll be all prepared to boogie on down.. LOL
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Old 12-21-2007, 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by onehorse View Post
One of the best places to hunt really big whitetails in the world is about an hour's drive from where I live along the Shields River, (Montana) but most of the good hunting land is leased by an outfitter who charges thousands of dollars to bow hunt there. He puts up tree stands, and has everything setup for mostly out-of-state hunters who want a trophy. These are free-ranging deer and there are no fences that any fawn can't jump over. It pisses me off that so much of that area is not available to the average hunter, but it seems like good old American business to me. Anyway, I might be getting a little off the subject, but do you think these deer should be entered in the book?
YES if there are no high fences
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Old 12-21-2007, 11:10 PM
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Bruce, I'm not defending these Shields River outfitters, but the genes and food sources out here produce really big bucks. There is lots of agricutural land where deer can eat everything they need for maximum growth. These fields are not set up as feed lots or attractants for deer, but as a matter of fact, draw and produce big deer without that goal in mind. A person would only have to control a large tract of land and limited hunting access, to easily claim trophy size deer. I do all my hunting on public land and always get at least a 4x4 with a 15 inch or better spread - it's not hard. These deer are 2 1/2 year olds - the genes and food are that good. If I had enough patience and discipline, I could be shooting much larger deer. So, although I hate to say it, I believe that in this part of the country, these outfitters are probably not feeding steroids, etc. to produce big deer. That would not be good business sense as they would be wasting their money on unnecessary expenses.
Another point on "pay-to-hunt" practices:
In Montana we have the Block Management Program where the state takes money from licenses fees of nonresidents and pays it to land owners to allow the public to access their ranches to hunt. So, in effect, the ranchers are being paid to let people hunt, just like the outfitters are getting paid. The only difference is that the ranchers are paid indirectly by the hunters while the outfitters are paid directly. So, if I set up on a piece of this land that borders an alfalfa field and get a really big buck (I've at least seen them), would that buck be OK in your Record Book?
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Old 12-22-2007, 04:43 AM
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Originally Posted by onehorse View Post
Bruce, I agree with you on that, but I thought that the B&C book and SCI book required that the game is taken by fair case methods. Of course, people could and I guess do, lie about where they got the animal.
Here in Montana, we had elk farms where "hunters" could pick out an elk to shoot. A few years back we, hunters and non-hunters, decided to ban them, and that's just what we did with a referendum and vote which made it illegal.
The trouble is many (most?) hunters get so caught up in the ego and competition factors that the actual hunting becomes a secondary issue. The result is all sorts of cheating - buying heads, stealing heads, poaching, you name it. Maybe it would be better if there were NO record books. Really, what's the point?
Seems to me that the honor should go to the animal, anyway, and not the hunter. How about a record book that lists the animal, but doesn't name the hunter. THAT would separate the real hunters from the guys with big heads and little "you-know-whats".
Excellent post is more like it
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Now therefore take, I pray thee, thy weapons, thy quiver and thy bow, and go out to the field, and take me some venison.
Genesis 27:3 "The thinking deer hunter should mature through three phases during his hunting life. First phase, "I need to kill a deer." Second phase, I want to harvest a nice deer. And last phase, we must manage this resource so our children and their children can experience the grand tradition of good deer hunting." - Jim Slinsky
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 12-22-2007, 05:02 AM
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Originally Posted by onehorse View Post
Bruce, I'm not defending these Shields River outfitters, but the genes and food sources out here produce really big bucks. There is lots of agricutural land where deer can eat everything they need for maximum growth. These fields are not set up as feed lots or attractants for deer, but as a matter of fact, draw and produce big deer without that goal in mind. A person would only have to control a large tract of land and limited hunting access, to easily claim trophy size deer. I do all my hunting on public land and always get at least a 4x4 with a 15 inch or better spread - it's not hard. These deer are 2 1/2 year olds - the genes and food are that good. If I had enough patience and discipline, I could be shooting much larger deer. So, although I hate to say it, I believe that in this part of the country, these outfitters are probably not feeding steroids, etc. to produce big deer. That would not be good business sense as they would be wasting their money on unnecessary expenses.
Another point on "pay-to-hunt" practices:
In Montana we have the Block Management Program where the state takes money from licenses fees of nonresidents and pays it to land owners to allow the public to access their ranches to hunt. So, in effect, the ranchers are being paid to let people hunt, just like the outfitters are getting paid. The only difference is that the ranchers are paid indirectly by the hunters while the outfitters are paid directly. So, if I set up on a piece of this land that borders an alfalfa field and get a really big buck (I've at least seen them), would that buck be OK in your Record Book?
I would say its no problem cuz its fair chase.Im glad to see everyone voicing there opions in a non argumentive manner .THANK YOU .like one person said theres fences and then theres FENCES ifor one prefer to bust my butt hunting state land going toe to toe with deer that have seen it all.i hunted private property and it seemed that the deer knew where the stands were.On top of that some people adopted the idea that they could shoot anything ,no tagging ,letting the meat go to waste.I cant be friends with people like that and i still am in torment over wether or not i should turn my so called hunting buddies in.Im a meat hunter am im proud of of the yearling does that feed my family.Ive yet to find a recipie for antlers.Fair chase is the only deer that should go in the books .Personaly ,Ive never even opened either book .Who cares.Its like comparing the size of your ,.....shoe .Thats my two cents
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Now therefore take, I pray thee, thy weapons, thy quiver and thy bow, and go out to the field, and take me some venison.
Genesis 27:3 "The thinking deer hunter should mature through three phases during his hunting life. First phase, "I need to kill a deer." Second phase, I want to harvest a nice deer. And last phase, we must manage this resource so our children and their children can experience the grand tradition of good deer hunting." - Jim Slinsky
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 12-22-2007, 10:19 AM
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Joel, you've raised another really good issue. (Man, you never know where these things are going!) The idea of buddies who cheat, break the rules/laws, whatever, is a difficult one. Personally, I try to avoid guys who hunt in unethical ways. It's pretty easy to tell who they are - usually bragging a lot - so much so that eventually they slip and admit something that gives them away as hunter "slobs". On the other hand, if you have a long time buddy who makes an honest mistake and doesn't break the rules as a practice, I suppose I wouldn't turn him in. I once hunted regularly with a friend who, on one occasion accidentally shot two antelope from the same herd when he only had one tag. When the goat he shot at the first time didn't fall, he assumed a miss and took a second shot. Anyway, when the smoke cleared, there were two dead antelope. When this mistake happened the next year, that was the last time I hunted with him. He's still my friend, but that's all (not a hunting buddy). Honestly, I believe these were both mistakes, but showed a tendency to use bad judgement, which made me a little uneasy about hunting with him.
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Old 12-22-2007, 10:30 AM
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Well said Mr. Signman, I love the smaller deer better than the biguns cuz they're better tasting, easier to carry/drag, and mostly, my family and friends love the grilled sweet meat during get togethers and picnics and stuff. I like to watch my cousin and his dad stand over the grill and argue who's the better cook/griller but I draw the line when they start talking about "how to hunt and how to do this and that" but they never been out in the wilderness a day in their lives. OFF TOPIC BUT I THOUGHT I'D SHARE IT WITH YALL.
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Old 12-22-2007, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onehorse View Post
Bruce, I'm not defending these Shields River outfitters, but the genes and food sources out here produce really big bucks. There is lots of agricutural land where deer can eat everything they need for maximum growth. These fields are not set up as feed lots or attractants for deer, but as a matter of fact, draw and produce big deer without that goal in mind. A person would only have to control a large tract of land and limited hunting access, to easily claim trophy size deer. I do all my hunting on public land and always get at least a 4x4 with a 15 inch or better spread - it's not hard. These deer are 2 1/2 year olds - the genes and food are that good. If I had enough patience and discipline, I could be shooting much larger deer. So, although I hate to say it, I believe that in this part of the country, these outfitters are probably not feeding steroids, etc. to produce big deer. That would not be good business sense as they would be wasting their money on unnecessary expenses.
Another point on "pay-to-hunt" practices:
In Montana we have the Block Management Program where the state takes money from licenses fees of nonresidents and pays it to land owners to allow the public to access their ranches to hunt. So, in effect, the ranchers are being paid to let people hunt, just like the outfitters are getting paid. The only difference is that the ranchers are paid indirectly by the hunters while the outfitters are paid directly. So, if I set up on a piece of this land that borders an alfalfa field and get a really big buck (I've at least seen them), would that buck be OK in your Record Book?
Onehorse, If the hunters are paying to hunt on lands where the Deer are living freely without fences and NOT being fed, then yes I would say any one of those deer from those areas should be allowed, BUT for the life of me I don't know why anyone would pay to hunt Deer that way.
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