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Too Much Gun?

12K views 34 replies 15 participants last post by  turner 
#1 ·
After my most recent trip to the firing range to get a feel for the 45-70, after having owned and fired a 30-30 on numerous occasions, I noted that at the last mili-second, when I squeeze the trigger on it, I close my eyes.

The kick is definitely stronger (after all, its 300+ grains worth) than the 30-30.

I'll need a gun with this caliber for Moose, but I am tempted to say it is too much gun for "me."

For those who have been watching what I post in here, you know that I'm not "new" to guns, but I AM new to hunting, and am planning my first hunt in 2013. This gives me time to get familiar, comfortable and accurate with the 45-70, before entering the woods.

That said, are there any pointers you could offer, that would help me with the anticipation of the kick, control of the high caliber gun I'm shooting, and avoiding the temptation to close my eyes (lol).

Also, for those of you who are watching them, I'm up to my 5th video (in progress) in my chronicling of my journey to my first hunt. The next one due out soon, is about the gear choices I've made.

Here's the first video in the series:
So You Want To Be A Hunter, Part 1 - YouTube


-Soupy1957
 
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#2 ·
well soupy1957, I like this part 1 video, I think it's a good personal documentary to share with others who might be interested in becoming hunters as well.


So far, I didn't hear any mention of the courteous hunters and genuine sportsman here at the Deer Hunters Club who share their wisdom with you
on their many many years of hunting, trapping & shooting knowledge.
offering you their best advice to guide you on your safest most successful hunting journey possible :wink: :wink:, :lol:

J/K, I think you're doing a good job based on what I've seen in part 1
Good Luck and happy safe hunting always... :coffee:
 
#7 ·
I strongly believe that the more you shoot the less you will close your eye. It's all about practice.
I agree with Tator , can't get enough practice.
Agreed, but once you develop that habit or a flinch, it's hard to cure. You need to practice without ammo (use snap-caps) until you get over that "expectation" of the recoil. Once the hammer let-off becomes a surprise, you'll flinch or close your eyes too late to affect your accuracy.
 
#4 ·
I agree with Tator , can't get enough practice.
And what I like to do that helps me shoot constantly is focus on the aiming not the shot, I mean when I'm going to shoot I don't just throw up the gun, put cross hair on spot n fire. I raise n aim, take a deep breath and while focused on my sights slowly exhaling that breath ( helps even more with steadiness) and all in the mean time I'm adding more n more pressure to the trigger.
Even though I know I'm shooting and it's all happing in a few seconds but the actual shot is a surprise because of my Focus on the sights and the slow adding pressure to the trigger.
 
#5 ·
I've received some advice to move the Scope forward further, rather than adjusting my head. I'm looking into that.

Also, "thanks" to one and all, for your kind words and good advice. I have all this winter and next spring and summer to get familiar with the 45-70 well enough to get a close cluster and better control.

-Soupy1957
 
#6 ·
in the army they stress over and over and over again to control your breathing. That's where I really learned to control it. It's true, you will shoot 100% better if you control it. Plus, when deer hunting, your adrenaline is pumping so to get your heart rate under control AND your breathing under control can sometimes be a task in itself.
 
#9 ·
"in the army they stress over and over and over again to control your breathing."

Is it like the training I had in photography, where we were taught to take a deep breath and hold it, before snapping the picture?

P.S.: What are Snap Caps? Educate me.

-Soupy1957
 
#10 ·
A snap cap is a device which appears similar to a standard firearm cartridge but contains no primer or projectile and is used to ensure that dry firing firearms of certain designs does not cause damage. Snap caps contain a spring-damped false primer which absorbs the force from the firing pin, allowing the user to safely test the function of the firearm without damaging the components of the firearm.
A small number of rimfire and centerfire weapons of older design should not be test-fired with the chamber empty, as this can lead to weakening and possible breakage of the firing pin and increased wear to other components in those firearms. In the instance of a rimfire weapon of primitive design, "dry firing" can also cause deformation of the chamber edge. For this reason some shooters use a snap cap in an attempt to cushion the weapon's firing pin as it moves forward.

A pair of 12 gauge snap caps


Snap caps and action-proving dummy cartridges also have usage as a training tool to replace live rounds for loading and unloading drills, as well as training for mis-fires or "jams", as they function identically to a live "dud" round that has not ignited
 

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#13 ·
Working on a flinch....

The best way to fix a shooter flinch is to never develope one to begin with. It is to late for that so option 2 it to overcome it. I always ask a shooter shooting at the range that is jerking the trigger in antisipation of recoil to CALL the shot. The crosshairs are never totally without some motion. The shooter if he/she really focuses on them will see a slight movement up down right left. At the instant of the rifle firing the shooter should be able to immediately call exactly where the cross hair was at the shot. If they can't they were antisipately recoil and closed their eyes for an instant. A light trigger is a real help with this because they don't have to pull hard just begin to press and it will go off as a surprise. With a bad flinch switch to a 22 rimfire until the flinch is overcome. I really like bringing a 22 rimfire to the range along with my Deer rifle. If I notice that I am starting to get sloppy or start to antisipate recoil I switch to the rimfire until I remember what I should be doing...

Karl
 
#17 ·
".Now, if you're hunting moose you probably need a caliber with recoil above 20 lbs. "

Yeah.........everyone I talk with says that they feel that the 45/70 is best for a Moose. Then again, I've seen hunting videos where a strong Bull Moose just shook his head, after being hit in the "kill zone" and walked away, (a 45/70 shot). It took another shot to bring him down.

-Soupy1957
 
#19 ·
Recoil really never bothered me much growing up. I haven't shot a 45-70 but did own a 444 and actually it wasn't that bad. 338 win, 270 wm give me all I want anymore though. I probably wouldn't choose a 45-70 if I went big bear hunting, probably a 338 win would do the trick.
 
#20 ·
All the info that has been given is valid. Here's some additional advice on the issue of flinching. Everybody flinches to some degree and at some time or other for various reasons. The best way to combat this that I know of is to use the snap caps (already suggested) AND have someone else load your firearm before you shoot it. They can load a live round or a snap cap so you don't know what will happen when you squeeze the trigger. This has always worked for me whenever I thought I was starting to flinch. Here's what happens: if there is a live round, you pull the trigger, and like always flinch or not, but it's hard to tell. If there is a dummy round, man, you really know if you flinched (and feel pretty silly). Continue alternating snap caps and live rounds at the range and practising with the snap caps at home. Sooner or later, you will pull the trigger on the UNKNOWN snap cap, and guess what, NO FLINCH. You will be amazed and feel great! You see, flinching is more of a state of mind. If you fool your brain into thinking there is nothing to pulling the trigger (which is what snap caps will do for you) you will beat the flinch... for a while, at least, but when it comes back, just start all over again.
More on your original question of "Too Much Gun" to follow.
 
#21 ·
OK, on the topic of "too much gun"
The legendary hunter/writer, Elmer Keith used to say that there's no such thing as too much gun. He was right, to a point. Elmer wanted a round that could shoot through any game animal lengthwise if it had to. Without getting into the anatomy and/or ethics of that concept, he probably had a point in thinking that his belief required a heavy, large caliber bullet. He was right because in his day that's all that could do an end-to-end penetration on a big game animal. Not so today. The newer bullets are contstructed for maximum penetration and expansion without breaking up while retaining maximum weight retention. They are accurate and, in the small to medium calibers, can be very flat shooting. Here is an example: A wildcat, .257, "Hot Tamale" with a 100 grain Barnes bullet completely penetrated both shoulders of a 2000+ pound bison bull and dropped it on the spot. Even Elmer would have been impressed.
That 45-70 you are shooting is deadly and has killed just about every animal in the world, and it's one that Elmer would have loved, but if it is intimidating you ever time you pull the trigger, you may be subjecting your self to a lot of unneccesary punishment. In one of your videos (very well done, by the way) you mentioned that you have a 30/06. That's plenty of medicine for a moose or any othet big game. You might consider it for your hunting as it is more accurate and flat shooting than the 45-70 with less recoil, and the 165 or 180 grain solid copper or other premium bullets that are now available will be more than capable of knocking the moose (but not you) flat. Good luck with your plans.
 
#25 ·
................you mentioned that you have a 30/06.
"Had" a .30-.30 (Model 94 Winchester) which got sold when the kids were small. I miss that gun!!

My intent was to go and get another one, but the ones I saw in the gun stores were just not in the greatest condition, and I wanted a side-eject.

So I changed my focus to the Marlin 336.

I had the 336 in my right hand (new) and the 45/70 in my left.

Having worked for Marlins, I had my prejudices about a "new" gun from that company (at least, the ones made in North Haven, just down the road from me).

The "new" 336 in my hands was made in Massachusetts, (I suspect that "production" was still "piece work" there as well), and the 45/70 had some use (meaning that most likely, burrs and kinks were probably already worked out of the gun). So I chose the gun that was "broken in" over the potential issues related to a "new" gun.

In retrospect, because of the cost of the ammo, and the power of the 45/70, I'd be more comfortable with the .30-.30, and should have chosen the 336.

I've been willing to trade folks.........any takers? Scope included!!

-Soupy1957
 
#24 ·
Sorry, my reply doesn't make sense...

A 30-06 that fits you correctly will not be a problem to shoot in the recoil department. It is amazing the difference in felt recoil between a rifle that fits with a good recoil pad, and one that doesn't fit you with a hard or steel buttplate. Try a couple of other 30-06s prior to black listing them for life....

Karl
 
#26 ·
dry fireing

I would try fireing my rifle without ammo and concintrate on keeping my eyes open dureing the process. It was recommended to me and I am passing it on. It seems to work for me. Check with a local gunsmith or your rifle manufacturer to make sure it won't do any damage to your personel firearm.
 
#27 ·
Rounds for 'dry firing'???

I would try fireing my rifle without ammo and concintrate on keeping my eyes open dureing the process. It was recommended to me and I am passing it on. It seems to work for me. Check with a local gunsmith or your rifle manufacturer to make sure it won't do any damage to your personel firearm.
Aren't there cartridges out there for just that purpose? Training?
Wouldn't this preclude causing any damage to the rifle?

RR
 
#28 ·
Snap Caps

Snap Caps are special dummy cartridges designed for dry firing. They are either made of plastic or aluminum. The primer on them is either spring loaded or a rubber type material designed for firing pin hits. The old rule of thumb was that repeat strikes of the firing pin going all the way to the stop because it didn't hit a primer could crystalize the metal and make it brittle.

Karl
 
#31 ·
Unless it kicks so much that the shooter is scared of it

We have all seen it, someone with a cannon on the firing line that wishes it didn't hurt so much with each pull of the trigger. That is why I am anti magnum, not that they aren't incredible. It is just that 99% of the shooters on the line would be better served with something from the standard list of cartridges(30-06 class). I have seen Deer hunters sighting in a 375 H&H. It was bought for bragging rights at Deer camp that year. The shooter was sure his buddy would top him with a 416 Rem next year.
Let's see a Deer weights ~200 lbs, an Elephant several thousand. I guess it would be funny watching the 416 shooter sight in for the years opener. I just hope they have plenty of eye relief from their scope.

Karl
 
#35 ·
Older thread, I know. But I thought I'd mention that I plan on hunting with one of my two .444s opening day of rifle season in Kentucky. I have had a .444S for several years now that is very accurate shooting the 265gr LE ammo and also picked up, a couple months ago a .444P with 18.5" ported barrel. I'm not so hot on those ports, but that's the only way the short Marlin .444s were made.
 

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#33 ·
444 Marlin, a 44 Mag on steriods....

I always thought that this was an interesting cartridge. They say it was better using the 265gr loading as the 240gr did not have the SD for good penetration. I have some 315gr GC lead bullets for my 44 Mag pistols that probibly would be perfect for it.

Karl
 
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