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post #61 of 71 (permalink) Old 04-03-2010, 03:02 PM
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are we going to start this again?

they opposed it before one word was written because ding dong said what he wanted in the debates and the leaders in both houses stood there nodding their empty heads. so it was easy to get on the no way band wagon even before he was swore in.

the majority of the population says the cost to individual freedoms and the monetary cost is to high, there has got to be a better way thats the majority. the CBO has basically said garbage in garbage out when they looked at the numbers and these people in washington if they are good at anything its pencil whipping numbers. double counting 500 billion, leaving out the 284 million for doctor comp, and when was the last time increasing the capital gains tax raised revenue? never thats when. 2.5 trillion over the next 10 years to the national debt is closer to the real cost and thats a far cry from lowering the debt.

yes! constitutional rights are being violated! read the 9th amendment, then read the 10th, not what some body's interpretation of decisions made trough out history which blow the way the wind does. or wait maybe lets. use roe versus wade there is a modern day court case that this law will be argued on. the government has no right to tell an individual what they must do or must not do for health care. also the dr patient confidentiality is out the window because now the dr must share that with the government. so there is an other argument that this law is unconstitutional.

there are good things it this law but way too many things are wrong with it, and 2 wrongs don't make a right.

now look at the jobs situation this things is causing. how can a company absorb 1 billion in cost for the first quarter without it costing jobs? what about caterpillar and what they are saying this is going to cost them? john deere? verizon? do you think this is going to create more jobs? only in the irs. companies are already moving to canada because, even they are friendlier to business. how is it fair that the unions get a pass for 10 years? or mt gets $$ for asbestos or earth quake $$ going to hi, or ne, or la, or vt or any of the other unfair pork. oh and just how does taking over student loans fix health care? for every good thing in this law there are 5 wrong or unfair.

now what has the other side of the isle done? zip point zero to help. and thats wrong as well.

the kool aid drinkers are just blindly nodding their heads and their political careers will end up going the way of jonestown. i for one haven't tasted the kool aid, i'll just stick with tea thank-you.

there are so many arguments against this law i have a hard time keeping up with them.
this law doesn't give us rights. our rights come from the creator and no ones right to health care had been taken away prior to this law. the right was always there. now, do you have a right to health insurance? nope. thats a perversion of the right to life as you said. the problem is the cost of health care and in turn the cost of insurance because that is based on health care cost. free loaders is part of that but so is charging $7.50 for an ibuprofen in the hospital that wasn't even taken. twice a day for to days. this happened years ago when my second was born. when i asked they said because it was there if it was needed. this and things like it drive the cost. illegals drive up the cost. any time care is given and not payed for the cost goes up.

this is the way i see it going. insurance will increase do to the law that say you must have it, oh did i mention the way this administration got the insurance companies on board was to take out the parts that would have restricted what they could charge?, anyway. they will make a killing, business will dump the coverage for employees forcing them to buy insurance or go directly to the medicaid. regs will come in restricting the insurance companies causing them to close the doors cause if they can't make money why be in business, putting even more people on medicaid. the feds will go 80% of the pop is now already on medicaid we might as well take over the whole thing and have a one payer system like canada or europe causing fewer people wanting to become drs, the start of rationing, and long waits to see a dr. this is how he got that short guy from ohio onboard with this plan. because they know its doomed to failure and the feds will have no choice but to go to single payer. the writing is on the wall and those of us that see it will rail against this law untill its repealed and replaced with a healthcare law we can all live with not just the 35% that want this one.

these people point to mass and say see its working there. unless you ask the state treasurer that says it would have gone belly up years ago if it hadn't been for the $$ the feds were giving them to help make it work. tenn a care tn's version is now putting dr visit limits on the people there because its a failure and costs are several times what they figured it would be.

how does this relate to the 2nd amendment? if the feds can ignore the 9th and 10th amendments they sure as shootin can ignore the 2nd. the gun banners have been trying to pervert that one for years and if they wanted to all the players are in place to do so now. thats how it relates to guns.

i will argue this issue with obama himself but being a career politician i'm sure i would only get the status quo with pointing out the good things leaving out the bad things and with the good only half truths, just like every other career politician.

my blood pressure is high again. sorry lots and lots of edits because of more thoughts and to address other statements/ propaganda from the obama administration

I too call this good hard working family man friend and i believe he knows my heart as many do, and yes he needs help and i will push for him and his to get the help, heck i'm not above begging for the help for him, but i have to draw the line at selling out this country, his future, his and my and everyone else's children's future to do so. and i wouldn't do it for me and mine either. as it stands now with everything totaled including this 2.5 trillion dollar health insurance company benefit law, every household owes 100000 plus to get to zero and the road is getting rockier with every ill conceived law this group passes. oh and this great new law that was suppose to get his kid on his health insurance even with a preexisting condition immediately failed to do so because of the sledgehammer ways of obama polosy and reid, the law was miss written and this part won't come into effect until next year. this does him no good for the heart surgery that is needed within the year. these are the dolts that are running this country both parts are equally to blame for the state of affairs. and we are too, for not holding their feet to the fire and making them do the right thing, the things the majority want. i for one will not ever sit by and watch us go down this path again and by saying "oh it ain't all bad, this is ok". i will yell it from and to everywhere i can. things are broke and they need to be fixed and not by just blindly voting for republicans cause they are just as bad. by voting for the ones that will do as we ask.

Last edited by ronn; 04-03-2010 at 04:35 PM.
post #62 of 71 (permalink) Old 04-03-2010, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by onehorse View Post
I have a friend who had one child born with half a heart. His other son has developed extreme asthma. Guess what, his insurance dropped him after chalking up over a $1,000,000 in medical bills. If you can look him in the eye, if you can walk by a mirror, or sleep well at night when you want to take this new health care right away from his little kids, then maybe we'd better get a whole new definition for what a "good American" is, because that's not what you are.
Wait a minute Onehorse. I'd be the last one to deny him insurance, or deny help for that matter. He's a friend of mine also. But lets see what kind of deal the goverment makes him and what kind of insurance he ends up with. I have a feeling it's not going to be as peachy as they say it's going to be. Maybe so, I hope so for his sake. His situation seems to be no win.

We have a pretty good group of local doctors here for heart and cancer treatment. They work as a team through facilities designed for the specialized treatment of these disorders. Last week they announced they are refusing treatment for several procedures due to the trouble of getting compensated by medicare. They said this new healthcare bill will make it even harder. When asked what they're patients were to do, they said "Go to the hospitals. These costs are extreemly high and we can't foot the bill."

I agree the other side of the aisle hasn't done anything either, and I believe we're better off for it. The less our goverment can do for us, the better.

We cannot continue to do the same things and expect different results
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post #63 of 71 (permalink) Old 04-03-2010, 06:06 PM
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southernman i have yet talked to a dr or anyone in health care that say this is going to help with health care costs granted its only been four or five but its still 100%. in fact many are retiring because they are going to be left holding the bag for a lot of services rendered. this will really help maters, not.
post #64 of 71 (permalink) Old 04-03-2010, 07:38 PM
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Onehorse instead of arguing anymore I will simply say I couldn't disagree with you more. Socialism is socialism no matter which way you throw it in the face of America. A clear MAJORITY of americans voiced their contempt at the health care law, I think that speaks well for the future of OUR country, yours and mine. No one can create a perfect health care system, but this one will be a disaster far greater than anthing in our history. I can only hope for a clean sweep this fall and carry enough votes to repell socialism, which is a gigantic desease infecting this great country. Socialism is not about caring for the less fortunate but government take over of virtually all aspects of our lives, including gun rights. If the Democrats are allowed to contine with their adjenda you and I will be sorely dissapointed. This bothers me more than any health care law. When the WILL of the people is cast aside we are in deep trouble as a country. Health care is just a start, its as clear as the screen that I'm typing on!
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post #65 of 71 (permalink) Old 04-03-2010, 08:14 PM
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OK, it's clear that no one on this site is going to budge one iota on this issue regardless of how much venting, name-calling, finger-pointing, and predicting takes place, or how many "facts" are presented by either side. So, what are we doing here? For myself, the voice of one, on this site, I'd be glad to close down the drama until everyone cools off. We can all vote in the next election and see what happens.
Ron, I feel the same way as you when you write, "are we going to start this again?", but I didn't start it again. (Check the dates on the posts.)
Ron, as you know, I made a promise to our mutual friend to "challenge" anyone who would try to take away health care from his sick children, and I WILL stick to my word. Just as long as anyone really wants to keep this up, my promise is good. Even so, I say let's all take a deep breath, a time out, as it were. OR do we keep going around the bush and getting nowhere but frustrated and upset? What do you guys say?
(Please note that I did not say ONE thing for my side of this argument in this post, and I am perfectly willing to give you guys the last word in your above posts, but if you want to continue, well there's my promise.)
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post #66 of 71 (permalink) Old 04-03-2010, 08:50 PM
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Onehorse, I learned a long time ago, fighting for my co-workers against bad management, (now Obama) that when two sides lock up usually the end result is a fight of some sort. With that said, I do enjoy quality debate and health care certainly gives us fodder for debate. However, I think we will all see enough fighting outside this site, in many areas, to make us all reflect on who we really are in the next couple of years, so I too will call a truce on this discussion,for now, and hopefully return to the great outdoor's discussions that brought us all together in the first place. I don't think we've left too much on the table, so to speak, that readers cannot differenciate the opposing parties! Amen, HM

Last edited by Hunting Man; 04-03-2010 at 08:54 PM.
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post #67 of 71 (permalink) Old 04-03-2010, 08:51 PM
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i think you spoke well for your stance and i respect that. i hope i spoke well enough for mine. we do agree our friend needs help as do many others we do not know. if it were in my power to make his situation better i would, in fact i believe and hope i will be come nov, as i'm sure you feel you will be as well. The "facts" have been laid out there for all to see or to at least investagate for themselves. i believe at this point we are beating a dead horse. I know you were holding to your word as am I. unfortunately not everyone has voiced their opinion and there is nothing, nor should there be, anything we can do to stop it. i think most everything that can be said, has, and i will let my words stand as is no mater the next post because i right now can think of nothing that would add to those words. sadly i haven't the skills or the education to state my thoughts on the mater more clearly or statesman like, so this is about as good as its going to get from me. i believe you know my heart and mind on darn near all things.
post #68 of 71 (permalink) Old 04-03-2010, 08:58 PM
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I have nothing but respect for everyone here and just having the right to debate the issues is a blessing in freedom!
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post #69 of 71 (permalink) Old 04-04-2010, 01:27 AM
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From a newbie

My lil sis,a Farmers insurance agent is going to make more money due to this law.
My wife is a vampire at a hospital,and I ask Her about issues.They can't turn someone away in emergency,but if you get cancer can and maybe will fall thru the cracks.
Medical is important to us all.I wish all who worked had affordable insurance,and I can't imagin the anguish of someone who needs care for a family member and can't afford it.
In PI in 79 there was a man who for 10 pesos[1.75us]would let you throw three darts at his back.F Marcos healthcare. I've been w/o healthcare at times in my life,and it sucks.It also sucks when it's offered and you can't afford to pay for it and pay bills.
This is why in my area [sw Jefferson] govt employees have spouses in healthcare or school system and are on their health ins.
I still feel we've been sold a bill of goods that has been infested with Rats.
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post #70 of 71 (permalink) Old 04-04-2010, 09:38 AM
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Ronn, some quotes and comments on your last post:
" i believe at this point we are beating a dead horse." (I hope that "dead horse" isn't Onehorse! LOL
"sadly i haven't the skills or the education to state my thoughts on the mater more clearly or statesman like, so this is about as good as its going to get from me. i believe you know my heart and mind on darn near all things." (Are you kidding, you are one of the most thoughtful and eloquent debaters on this site! You have expressed your views very well. It's clear to me that you are not shooting from the hip, and I respect you for that. Yea, I've had a LOT of formal education, including philosophy, psychology and speech courses, etc., and even so, you give me a real challenge every time we get into one of these issues - even knocking the wind out of me from time to time... and you know I have a LOT of wind!LOL And, yes, I know you have a good heart, my friend.)
As for anyone else who wants to continue with this debate: This site was never intended for political or religious debates. As you know, that was supposed to be one of the rules. Whatever happened to that rule, anyway, (Mark)? There are lots of sites designed expressly for political and religious debates and, if anyone wants to pursue this discussion, I'd submit that they give those sites a visit. Not trying to limit free speech, but these topics were never intended to be on this particular site.
To Ronn and Hunting Man: The three of us have been the most vocal on this issue, so maybe if the three of us call a "truce", as H.M. put it, things will simmer down a bit and we can get back to the original subject of this site. I sure hope so! So, now I am taking it that we three have a gentlemen's agreement and are going to "shut down" on this, at least until one of us (and I promise it won't be me) decides he wants another go-round. What we need to do now, is go hunting... TOGETHER!

Last edited by onehorse; 04-04-2010 at 10:11 AM.
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