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Old 03-27-2011, 02:02 AM
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hunt NH hunt NH is offline
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wich is a better gun. bushmaster or Stag arms? right now i can get a pritty good deal on ether. the price diference between the 2 is irelavent. i just want the better set up. i know that bushmaster is the bigger brand name and more common. but the stag arms cataloge says they build to mil spec, and has a lifetime warrenty. i build stuff to milspec at work. and ill tell you this the saying " good enuff for govt work" is bs they dont play around when it comes to millitary parts. there can be no defects, and there must be a paper trail from start of manufactuing to end product to prove it. pluss a got a friend at work who does gun smithing in his spare time and he says that the stag arms is hands down better than bushmaster. what do you guys think?
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Old 03-27-2011, 04:41 AM
Hunting Man Hunting Man is offline
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My choise right now, leaning to Stag or Rock River arms.
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Old 03-27-2011, 06:30 AM
ronn
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i have had, and have, bushmasters. i also have a dpms. here is the thing, the bushmaster will shoot both the 223 and the military version 5.56 without any hitch in their giddyup. not all ar's will do so, or at least they didn't only a few years ago. i would lean toward the bushmaster.

this explains the differences pretty well;

.223 Remington

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.223 Remington
5.56x45mm NATO (left) next to .30-30 Winchester (center) and 7.62x51mm NATO (right).TypeRifle/varmintPlace of origin United StatesProduction historyDesignerRemington ArmsDesigned1964Variants.223 Ackley Improved, 5.56x45mm NATOSpecificationsParent case.222 Remington MagnumCase typeRimless, bottleneckBullet diameter.224 in (5.7 mm)Neck diameter.253 in (6.4 mm)Shoulder diameter.354 in (9.0 mm)Base diameter.376 in (9.6 mm)Rim diameter.378 in (9.6 mm)Rim thickness.045 in (1.1 mm)Case length1.76 in (45 mm)Overall length2.26 in (57 mm)Rifling twist1 in 7 inch to 1 in 9 inch (typical)Primer typeSmall rifleMaximum pressure55,000 psi (380 MPa)Ballistic performanceBullet weight/typeVelocityEnergy36 gr (2.3 g) JHP3,750 ft/s (1,140 m/s)1,124 ftlbf (1,524 J)55 gr (3.6 g) Nosler ballistic tip3,240 ft/s (990 m/s)1,282 ftlbf (1,738 J)60 gr (3.9 g) Nosler partition3,160 ft/s (960 m/s)1,330 ftlbf (1,800 J)69 gr (4.5 g) BTHP2,950 ft/s (900 m/s)1,333 ftlbf (1,807 J)77 gr (5.0 g) BTHP2,750 ft/s (840 m/s)1,293 ftlbf (1,753 J)Test barrel length: 24 inches (61 cm)
Source(s): Federal Cartridge [1]The .223 Remington is a sporting cartridge with almost the same external dimensions as the 5.56x45mm NATO military cartridge. The name is pronounced either two-two-three or two-twenty-three. It is loaded with a 0.224-inch (5.7 mm) diameter, jacketed bullet, with weights ranging from 40 to 90 grains (2.6 to 5.8 g), though the most common loading by far is 55 grains (3.6 g). When loaded with a bullet that expands, tumbles, or fragments in tissue, this cartridge is capable of delivering devastating terminal performance. Proponents of the hydrostatic shock theory contend that this includes remote wounding effects known as hydrostatic shock.[2][3][4]
While the external case dimensions are very similar, the .223 Remington and 5.56x45mm differ in both maximum pressure and chamber shape. The maximum and mean pressures for some varieties of the 5.56 mm (different cartridge designations have different standards) exceed the SAAMI maximums for the .223 Remington, and the methods for measuring pressures differ between NATO and SAAMI.[5] The 5.56 mm chamber specification has also changed over time since its adoption, as the current military loading (NATO SS-109 or US M855) uses longer, heavier bullets than the original loading did. This has resulted in a lengthening of the throat in the 5.56 mm chamber. Thus, while .223 Remington ammunition can be safely fired in a 5.56 mm chambered gun, firing 5.56 mm ammunition in a .223 Remington chamber may produce pressures in excess of even the 5.56 mm specifications due to the shorter throat.[6]
Contents

[hide][edit] History

The .223 Remington (5.56x45mm) is a cartridge that is ballistically in-between its predecessors, the .222 Remington, and the .222 Remington Magnum. The 223/5.56x45 was developed to fit the action length of the new M-16 service rifle. The 223/5.56mm quickly became popular as a civilian cartridge because of the availability of brass, and the chambering of commercial varmint rifles in that caliber. Shortly after military acceptance of the M-16, the semi-automatic version, the AR-15 became available, making the .223 cartridge even more popular.



Last edited by ronn; 03-27-2011 at 06:43 AM.
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Old 03-27-2011, 06:45 AM
ronn
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Cartridge dimensions
The .223 Remington has 1.87 ml (28.8 grains H2O) cartridge case capacity.

.223 Remington maximum C.I.P. cartridge dimensions. All sizes in millimeters (mm).[7]
Americans would define the shoulder angle at alpha/2 = 23 degrees. The common rifling twist rate for this cartridge is 305 mm (1 in 12 in), 6 grooves, lands = 5.56 millimetres (0.219 in), grooves = 5.59 millimetres (0.220 in), land width = 1.88 millimetres (0.074 in) and the primer type is small rifle.
According to the official Commission Internationale Permanente pour l'Epreuve des Armes Feu Portatives (C.I.P.) guidelines the .223 Remington case can handle up to 430 megapascals (62,366 psi) piezo pressure. In C.I.P. regulated countries every rifle cartridge combo has to be proofed at 125% of this maximum C.I.P. pressure to certify for sale to consumers. This is equal to the NATO maximum service pressure guideline for the 5.56x45mm NATO cartridge.
The SAAMI pressure limit for the .223 Remington is set at 379.212 megapascals (55,000 psi), piezo pressure.[8]
[edit] Uses

The .223 Remington is one of the most common rifle cartridges in use in the United States, being widely used in two types of rifles: (1) varmint rifles, most of which are bolt action and commonly have 1-in-12 rifling twist suitable for bullets between 38 to 55 grains (2.5 to 3.6 g), and (2) semi-automatic rifles such as the AR-15 and the Ruger Mini-14, which are commonly found to have twist rates of 1-in-7, 1-in-9, or 1-in-8. (Most modern AR-15s use 1-in-9 which is suitable for bullets up to 69 grains / 4.5 grams or 1-in-7 which is suitable for slightly heavier bullets, but older AR-15s used 1-in-12 twist rates, making them suitable for use with bullets of 55 grains / 3.6 grams.) The semi-automatic rifle category is often used by law enforcement, for home defense, and for varmint hunting. Among the many popular modern centerfire rifle cartridges, .223 Remington ammunition is among the least expensive and is often used by avid target shooters, particularly in the "service rifle" category or 3 gun matches.
[edit] .223 Remington versus 5.56 mm NATO


These 5.56x45mm NATO cartridges are identical in appearance to .223 Remington. They are, however, not completely interchangeable.


While the 5.56mm NATO and .223 Remington cartridges and chamberings are very similar, they are not identical.
Military cases are generally made from thicker brass than commercial cases; this reduces the powder capacity (an important consideration for handloaders[9]), and the NATO specification allows a higher chamber pressure. NATO EPVAT test barrels made for 5.56mm NATO measure chamber pressure at the case mouth, as opposed to the location used by the United States civil standards organization SAAMI. The piezoelectric sensors or transducers NATO and SAAMI use to conduct the actual pressure measurements also differ. This difference in measurement method accounts for upwards of 137.9 megapascals (20,000 psi) difference in pressure measurements. This means the NATO EPVAT maximum service pressure of 430 megapascals (62,000 psi) for 5.56mm NATO, is reduced by SAAMI to 379.21 megapascals (55,000 psi) for .223 Remington.[10] In contrast to SAAMI, the other main civil standards organization C.I.P. defines the maximum service and proof test pressures of the .223 Remington cartridge equal to the 5.56mm NATO.
The 5.56mm NATO chambering, known as a NATO or mil-spec chamber, has a longer leade, which is the distance between the mouth of the cartridge and the point at which the rifling engages the bullet. The .223 Remington chambering, known as SAAMI chamber, is allowed to have a shorter leade, and is only required to be proof tested to the lower SAAMI chamber pressure. To address these issues, various proprietary chambers exist, such as the Wylde chamber (Rock River Arms)[11] or the ArmaLite chamber, which are designed to handle both 5.56mm NATO and .223 Remington equally well. The dimensions and leade of the .223 Remington minimum C.I.P. chamber also differ from the 5.56mm NATO chamber specification.
Using commercial .223 Remington cartridges in a 5.56mm NATO chambered rifle should work reliably, but generally will not be as accurate as when fired from a .223 Remington chambered gun due to the longer leade.[12] Using 5.56mm NATO mil-spec cartridges (such as the M855) in a .223 Remington chambered rifle can lead to excessive wear and stress on the rifle and even be unsafe, and the SAAMI recommends against the practice.[13][14] Some commercial rifles marked as ".223 Remington" are in fact suited for 5.56mm NATO, such as many commercial AR-15 variants and the Ruger Mini-14, but the manufacturer should always be consulted to verify that this is acceptable before attempting it, and signs of excessive pressure (such as flattening or gas staining of the primers) should be looked for in the initial testing with 5.56mm NATO ammunition.[15]
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Old 03-27-2011, 06:49 AM
ronn
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so there are a few issues to take into consideration some could be safety concerns, reliability, accuracy, and the bullet weight and type used with particular attention to rate of twist.

also are you going to hunt with it? if so you will probably have to shoot .223 ammo, mainly because of bullet construction. .223 ammo is built for hunting and 5.56 tends to be fmj (full metal jacket) which is illegal to hunt with in most states or it is here in nh. and yes shooting ground hogs/woodchucks is hunting and therefore fmj is illegal. and even yet another thing, if you are going to hunt with it you will need a small mag in order to stay within the states mag capacity for hunting rules.

Last edited by ronn; 03-27-2011 at 07:10 AM.
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Old 03-27-2011, 07:19 AM
spiker spiker is offline
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Both good guns however for your money i would go with the Stag.Its chambered for the 5.56 its designed for the higher pressures so you can shoot 223 no problem.Personally i would check out Rock River Arms they have been having some nice sales.Pretty much any Ar you choose colt,bushmaster,armalite,rra,stag,is going to be a good gun.I can tell you that the accurracy of RRA is unreal.Good luck.
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Old 03-27-2011, 07:28 AM
ronn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spiker View Post
Both good guns however for your money i would go with the Stag.Its chambered for the 5.56 its designed for the higher pressures so you can shoot 223 no problem.Personally i would check out Rock River Arms they have been having some nice sales.Pretty much any Ar you choose colt,bushmaster,armalite,rra,stag,is going to be a good gun.I can tell you that the accurracy of RRA is unreal.Good luck.
its my understanding that because its chambered/built for the higher pressured 5.56 shooting the lower pressured 223 can sometimes put a hitch in the giddyup of cycling cleanly. thats my understanding anyway. with bushmaster its not a question they fire either equally as well. rate of twist and bullet weight are the onlything to take into consideration with the bushmaster.

Last edited by ronn; 03-27-2011 at 07:30 AM.
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Old 03-27-2011, 07:47 AM
spiker spiker is offline
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Im sure its a non issue but he could contact Stag.Now if it was chambered for 223 i wouldnt run 5.56 out of it.RRA makes what they call a wylde chamber designed to accomadate both and some manufactures like S&W stamp there barrels with both.Im fairly certain that the Stag would eat any 223 you could throw at it but he could check it out.
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Old 03-27-2011, 09:10 AM
ronn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spiker View Post
Im sure its a non issue but he could contact Stag.Now if it was chambered for 223 i wouldnt run 5.56 out of it.RRA makes what they call a wylde chamber designed to accomadate both and some manufactures like S&W stamp there barrels with both.Im fairly certain that the Stag would eat any 223 you could throw at it but he could check it out.
you are probably right. i would think by now they would all shoot both but like i said not that many years ago, five or so, it was an issue.
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Old 03-27-2011, 11:23 AM
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I would take this over a Bushmaster or a Stag any day of the week. If you're looking at getting a 16" AR you will want a midlength gas system over a carbine gas system.

ST-15 Mid-Length LE Carbine [STR5035-MLS] - $809.95 : Spikes Tactical
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