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fallin of the wagon

9K views 38 replies 7 participants last post by  tator 
#1 ·
been about 2 months since we been to church. tried a few other just not the same without family and friends. Just havnt been digging the preacher. he has no pep. and just keeps saying the same thing over and over. his sermons or so short sometimes were out by 11:45. I have heard he is wanting to go someplace else. wish him luck,but please hurry. We really miss going,but would rather watch a good sermon on tv than be droned to sleep
 
#2 ·
Hellbilly... I want to caution you with all due respect. I'm not trying to tell you what to do or try to talk down to you, but I want to caution you. When my wife and I got married, we moved to a town that was around an hour away from our home town. We went to 2-3 different churches and never felt "at home". While we went through that time, we didn't realize it, but we slowly stopped going regularly. Now that I look back on it, I realize we didn't put any effort into it. We didn't try to establish relationships with anyone and we didn't join any church groups (like sunday school classes, or any other worship services). We now live back in our home town and we regularly go to church and we are very much involved. We sometimes call our church our second family. The thing I have learned is that sometimes you may think you don't "need" to have relationships within your church, but there are people within your church who need you. They need you to be their friend and their "family". It's when you start relying on people in the Lord that you realize you need them too. It's an accountability thing. That's one of the big aspects of going to church that many people don't realize. They think they don't ever have to be "involved" in the church, but the truth is, God wants you to be involved. God wants you to be part of His church family. Not just for YOU, but for the people in the church who may need you in their life.
My point is this,,,, don't get complacent with not going to church. I realize sometimes the pastor and/or the congregation is not what you are looking for, I understand that, but I firmly believe the solution to your problem should not be just not going. I encourage you to find a place of worship and TRY to make it work. The truth is, ALL churches have their flaws,, after all we are human-- even the pastor. The most important thing to keep in mind is to find a church where the pastor preaches the BIBLE, and nothing else.
I grew up with a pastor that, to me, just didn't fit my needs. I didn't "get" his sermons and he was really long-winded. I was bored. It wasn't until I was around 19 or 20 and it started clicking. This man was a BIBLE preaching pastor. He spoke the truth. His sermons DID make sense, it's just that I never gave him the chance. I never gave him my full attention.

Good luck to you and your family. I too go to church with my family and extended family and it would be hard for me as well if they stopped going. I would definately feel tempted to not go as much. BUT then I'd be letting my church family down. This all goes back to the accountability thing I spoke of earlier.

Let me know how this turns out for you all,,, I'll be praying for you and your family
 
#3 ·
Or, as an alternative, you could question why you feel the need to attend a church or be a member of a church? Are you less of a good person if you don't attend? Do you feel the urge to suddenly become a sinner if you haven't been inside a church?

I have nothing against anyone who goes, or anyone who doesn't. I don't feel the need myself, and haven't in 35+ years. I can find my religion and my gods anywhere, it doesn't have to be inside those 4 walls. And it doesn't make me any less good.

Just a counter-thought.
 
#6 ·
Good points scorpion. I see your side. I choose to attend church mainly because it gives me a chance to be in close fellowship and worship with my church family. I don't go to church to satisfy myself, but to worship God. I do agree that worship can take place anywhere and at anytime. But when I don't go to church for any period of time I personally feel empty. The church is God's house. I look at it like this, if I had a close (and I mean really, really close) friend who lived only 5-10 miles away would I constantly just call him/her on the phone, or would I go visit them regularly? I think you know my choice.
As HM said, to each his own. Church is not the only place I go to worship God or to pray. Going to church is one of my many opportunities to express publicly my love for Jesus Christ and God my Father. In my life, I need that. I need to have people around me who hold me accountable for my life and actions. Just as I depend on my family I depend on my church family. I love them just the same. I do have to admit, there is a big difference in going to church and being connected within the church. There are many people in my church who attend but they are not plugged in. That's their choice. Is it right or wrong? I don't know. That's not for me to judge.

I like this conversation... any comments? Just so you all know, I pray *almost* daily for everyone on here. God bless!
 
#13 ·
... I don't go to church to satisfy myself, but to worship God. I do agree that worship can take place anywhere and at anytime. But when I don't go to church for any period of time I personally feel empty. The church is God's house. ...
A well written reply, and one I can appreciate. But I agree with HM more. The whole world is God's house, as he created (if you believe) the heavens and the earth, the skies above, the ground below. God should be everywhere, which is why I don't confine myself to four walls. I can find my religion in the breeze off the glacier, the eagles soaring in the sky, the pounding of the surf on the rocks, the ripple of the wind thru the spruces.

I can understand your need to "get back on the wagon", but don't feel that if you don't walk inside those four walls that you're any less in touch with your religion. Take the family out on Sunday to a nice grassy knoll in a sunny, flowering meadow and hold your own services by talking together about your beliefs. I think you'll find yourself just as a part of the spirituality as sitting in a pew.
 
#7 ·
Also,,, I do not consider my Christianity my religion. I am a Christ follower and He is who I look up to for help in my times of need and praise for all He has done for me.

I only worship one God and that is God the Father. The same God who sent His Son to this earth to die on the cross for my and your sins and then rose again after 3 days.

Other than that-- I absolutely agree with you that worship does not only happen (nor should it only happen) inside those 4 walls.
 
#9 ·
First off Tator thanks for the prayers for all of us.I agree to each their own and believe along with Hm that your place of worship can be your own choice.Ive met many phony church goers and many great people who do not attend and also vice versa.I do believe we all need some type of faith and belief to get by.
 
#10 ·
I was never saying that everyone who went to church is a true believer. I too was one of those people who just went through the process because it would disappoint my parents if I didn't go. That was in my younger years. I loved God, but just didn't want to go to church. I know have a better understanding of what church is and why it's important- to me. I'm not trying to force anyone into going to church, and you are all right, just going to church does not do anything. I'm a firm believer that in order to be saved and go to heaven you have to have a close and personal relationship with God. That doesn't just happen one day a week for one hour. :) Much of my worship and "talking with God" time happens outside of church.
Plus, when you involve kids, which I have, I do not solely trust myself to teach them about God and all His work and doings. By going to church I have resources that I would never have if I didn't go.

Hebrews 10:25
Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.


Romans 12:5
... so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others.


and the best one....
1 Corinthians 12:14-23
Now the body is not made up of one part but of many. If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. If they were all one part, where would the body be? As it is, there are many parts, but one body.

The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!" On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor.
 
#11 ·
It was a rare event when Jesus chose to teach inside, but instead formed impromtude (spell?) outdoor gatherings for his teachings. I believe he chose where he was most comfortable in God' arena of the great outdoors, where Mother Nature was his greatest achievement. The very best part of all of this is we get to decide what works best for us and our creator to form a working relationship based on truth, faith, love and admiration for his creation accomplishments and the admission of our sins for forgiveness.

Here is a bedtime prayer that I say every night, I find great comfort in it as it smoothes the mind and soul before sleep.

Dear heavenly father, I ask for your forgiveness for the sins that I have have committed against you this past day. I am truly sorry for all my sins and I ask for your forgiveness through my lord and savior Jesus Christ. Thank you God for hearing my prayer, amend.
For over 12 years this is how I finish my day! This might not be in church but I know he hears it anyway an it works well for me.
 
#12 ·
Great post HM. I sincerely believe all Christians have a different relationship with God. Just like if you have a brother or sister... your relationship with your parents is different for you than it is for your siblings. Same thing. Yes, most do look similar in some way, but that doesn't mean they can look alot different for some. Do I believe you have to go to church to go to heaven? NO. Does God want you to go to church? Yes. I believe the most important thing about being a Christian and being close to God is that you have a CLOSE and PERSONAL relationship with God. That relationship is yours and yours alone. NO one goes to heaven through someone else. I think our society has that stuck in their heads... that if you know someone who knows God that's good enough. NOPE. God wants a relationship with you. A close relationship.
 
#14 ·
Hellbilly,
As an old pastor told me, "There ain't no Lone Ranger Christians!"
We are made for community and fellowship.
Yes when I go way out in a stand and sit there all day I do get feelings to bail.
But my question to myself is where you gonna go? And as you Tator, said, I don't have a religion I have a personal relationship with my Lord and Savoir Jesus Christ. Fall and fail, yep I think thats my battle cry but the Voice of Truth tells me different. I can't go to Canada and drink directly out of the lake or sit in a stand and not appreciate The Lord.
But I still don't miss "church" on Sunday morning, it's just what I do!
daddus
PS You are in prayer my brother
 
#15 ·
With all due respect scorpion, i understand and respect your stance and your point of view. I have a Sunday School teacher whom has been my teacher for the past 20+ years (I'm blessed to have such a Godly husband and wife teach my class) and he said something that has stuck with me for many, many years. "if you think you can be a Christian without attending some sort of worship with other believers, you're kidding yourself". I agree mostly with this statement, however, I do believe you can be a Christian and not go to church and still go to heaven (i.e. scorpion). That is my belief. Now, do I believe that's what God wants? No. I sincerely believe God wants you to be plugged in. You are correct when you say you can get your "fill" out in nature, I do the same because God's creation is awesome! But being plugged in a worship group helps you grow as a Christian. When you started kindergarten you went to school and you learned from your teachers because they knew everything you needed to know and they knew how to relay it to you so you could understand. Even up into high school, your teachers were there to teach you because they were professionals on the material they taught. Eventually you master the skills and tasks you learned in school and you use them in your life every day. Well the same goes for church. I rely on the people in my church who can teach me. I am hungry and I want more and more. To stop going to church, for me, would be like saying "ok I have mastered everything I need to know". God's word (BIBLE) is complex and somewhat hard to follow and understand. There are so many things I have missed in my almost 33 years in scripture that absolutely shocks me that I missed it when I read it. I would have never found that unless someone showed me.. this is where church comes into play. My pastor, my teachers and my peers.
Please understand that church is NOT something I attend just because I should. Or just because I always have. I attend because I WANT TO. My cup is constantly running out and if I don't attend it runs dry. I need to be filled up or else I run out and my life becomes all about me. I slowly start the transition to worshiping other things, other gods like time, money, possessions, and less and less time worshiping the one TRUE God. My church is my family. The people there lift me up, they fill my cup and most importantly they hold me accountable- this is something I WANT them to do.

I hope I have not upset you in any way. These are my feelings, these are my beliefs and I'll never change from them. I hope I can encourage you to find a church family and get plugged in. If not every week, maybe every other week. If not every other week, maybe once a month? I think you will find a true blessing in being plugged into a community like a true God-loving church.

God's creations are awesome, I see that everyday I wake when I see my wife and my kids. He gave them to me. I am blessed that way. I also go to church to give thanks to Him for choosing to love me. He didn't have to die on the cross for my sins, but he did. So giving him two hours a week for church worship is absolutely fine with me.

I have enjoyed talking with you about this- and again, I hope I have not offended you or upset you. From hearing you talk, I feel as though you have a strong relationship with God and His Son and I hope your relationship continues to grow and strengthen.

God bless
 
#16 · (Edited)
My cup is constantly running out and if I don't attend it runs dry.
Actually, you just nailed your "need". In essence, you need to find out what in your life is making your cup run dry. If going to church fills it back up, then more power to you. If a walk in the woods is what is needed, then that's awesome too. It works for me.

I have enjoyed talking with you about this- and again, I hope I have not offended you or upset you. From hearing you talk, I feel as though you have a strong relationship with God and His Son and I hope your relationship continues to grow and strengthen.
I enjoy the discussion, but I won't mislead you. Haven't been in a church since I was raised Roman Catholic at age 16, and I don't subscribe to the "only 1" god anymore. I find that my gods, be they nature, my emotional link to my family, my hobbies and activities that refill my cup .... they don't subscribe to a single deity. And when I say "the gods" in plural, I mean that. There is goodness or godness to be found in many things and places. If you want to believe that a single god created all of this, then enjoy that and we'll continue to have a good discussion. The aliens when we meet them, may have a different take on things. And the other half of the world that comprises the non-Christian religions such as Islam (approximately 50% of the world population) all think you're wrong too.

Come judgement day, somebody is going to be very wrong, and very very surprised. Me? I'll just be happy and a good person until then anyway.

You know, I knew the basic 10 Commandments before I went to Sunday Catchecism. An interesting fact that those exact "commandments" predate Judaism or Christianity and can be found in all of the pre-Christian religions, be they Summerian, Hitiite, Egyptian, or whatnot. They are just basic good rules. I don't need a religion to tell me that.

What I find in my gods (plural) is a basic tenant to be a good person, do no wrong, be a family man, be loving and caring and treat others the way I want them to treat me. I can do that without anybody's book be it the Bible, the Quoran, or Chiltons.

It is a good discussion! :thumbup:
 
#17 ·
The 'thing' that makes my cup run dry is that I'm a sinner and I'm human. When I go too long without worshiping with my church family, my 'cup' (or my life) runs dry. What I'm meaning is not that I stop becoming a Christian or that I stop loving God, it's that I sort of lose touch with other believers and that makes my life run dry. Going back to what I said, church is not only for me, I like to think I uplift others in my church family too.

Sadly, I have to disagree with you on the gods thing. There is only one God in my life. No tree, rock, animal or object is a "god" to me- although, God did make those things and I do appreciate that and acknowledge that. God is the beginning of everything. He was "around" before the beginning of time- He created those trails that you walk in nature. God is also the One who sent His only Son to earth to die on the cross for my sins and your sins. His death was a gift to us. He paid the price for our sins. My trust, hope and faith is in ONE God. That is where I believe we'll have to stop the discussion. I am not "open" to accept any other views on this- I can respect your stance (and I do) but I do not feel as though God wants me to treat the things of this world as a god - and I lower case god here because there is only one God.

I agree with you on the 50% of the world-view on God. Does that change my mind? No. Are we living in a "lost" world? Yes.

The Bible is God's word. I live my life through it and by it (at least I try to!). Yes, Godly men wrote the passages, but God gave them the words and wisdom to write with. There are no other books that I will live my life by. The Bible is a tool for life. You can literally find an answer to every problem that has ever happened- IN THE BIBLE.

Thank you for the discussion, I am going to continue to pray for you. I am done here. Tator OUT! :)
 
#20 · (Edited)
Sorry, I know you said you were done, but ...

The 'thing' that makes my cup run dry is that I'm a sinner and ...
Why are you a sinner? Why am I a sinner? Did I forget to put that on my schedule for the day, because I sure don't recall waking up and sinning. Haven't sinned since I got to work, and don't intend to sin later on because my calendar is pretty full already. Actually did a few good deeds today, so where I'm classified as a sinner for the day just isn't working for me.

He created those trails that you walk in nature.
Actually Parks & Rec did, and the deer and bears made some of the others.

1 Timothy 2:5
Bayern-Munich 3, Arsenal 1.

A wise man once said "God is in the details". What he meant, after much introspection, was that finding solace and peace in the little things was enough to fill his cup. The resolve of a rock that has resisted glacial erosion for thousands of years. The subtle perfection of an eagle in the sky. The peace that overcomes you when you watch hundreds of thousands of salmon swim up river to spawn and die, knowning that this is the natural order of things and the way it was meant to be for them. They need no god, they create no sin. In the absence of sin (and the key is who gets to define that you have sinned) then why is a god needed to absolve you? Especially if you just wake up again tomorrow as a sinner (by somebody's definition).

A grand discussion!

Yea, neither of us will convince the other of right-wrong, or which book to read. (Aw come on, I found that Chilton's remark to be killer-funny!) You read the bible, and if it makes you a better person then I cannot be happier for you. Pray for me? Thanks, perhaps a wiser use of time would be to pray for common-sense in politics to return in this country.

I once stood at a fence in my yard, listening to a neighbor on one side and another local neighbor arguing that they each knew, knew, knew, knew to the core of their being that the other one was going to hell. One was Mormon, one was Methodist.

I almost did handstands and cartwheels listening.
 
#18 ·
This is a good discussion! Everyone gets to believe in what they wish too and yes in the end someone will be correct. There are many mysteries out there yet to be solved and our understanding of history will be rocked soon......... We are without question decendants of a much older civilization way beyond our 10K estimation. This in no way changes how I believe but history will be different and shock many.
 
#21 · (Edited)
I am a sinner because my name is not Jesus Christ. He is the only person to ever live on this earth that did not sin. He was perfect. Are there days where I sin very little? Yes, but the very thought of myself not being a sinner puts me on the same plane as Jesus- which I am not. I am in no way saying I am a bad person, but a sinner? Yes. Sinning doesn't condemn you to hell- if you are saved. In order to get to heaven you have to believe in one God, the only God (this is where I think we fork off in the road) and that God sent His Son to die on the cross for all man-kind's sin (since Jesus was without sin) and then He rose from the dead and ascended back into heaven.

Preforming good deeds does not "cover up" sin. Sinning can take place in actions, thoughts, words, etc... I can't tell you if and when you have sinned, but do I believe every human sins? Yes. I'm not condoning sin, but the idea of a human being without sin would suggest that you believe there are others on this planet that are Christ's equal? (this is the other place where we majorly fork in the road)

Jesus was not just some 'wise man'- He is my Savior.

You are correct on the parks and rec and deer thing... but then again, I guess those trails wouldn't be possible if God never made those people and animals huh?

It's obvious you are set in your beliefs and it's obvious I am set in my beliefs. The reason I pray for you is not because I feel bad for you or anything like that. I believe you do believe there is a God and I believe you are a good person. I never doubted that. I believe God loves you just the same as me. I believe I am no better than you are. Are our beliefs similar, in a way yes, but in a big way, no. I pray for many things in my life, including the people on the deerhuntersclub website. I pray for HM, BB, GFD and all the other guys and gals on here. Believe me, praying for you does not "take away" from any other topic I pray about- I don't mind it at all.
 
#22 ·
I am a sinner because my name is not Jesus Christ.
Then wouldn't it be easiest just to change your name?

Sorry, I know that's just egging you on a bit. I'm glad you have your religion, as long as it is a religion of tolerance, peace, love and understanding. Religion has done so much to divide this world, and has brought so much pain, suffering and condemnation solely in the name of "my god is better than your god". Frankly a tolerant person shouldn't give a darn about what his neighbor believes or doesn't believe as long as it makes him or her a good person.

And that is good enough for me.
 
#23 · (Edited)
What I meant by “I am a sinner because my name is not Jesus Christ” is that I am not His equal. I am in no way perfect like he was. God made Him perfect because God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one. Jesus was God in human form. The holy spirit is something that lives inside me because I have faith that He is my savior and my Lord (John 14:16-17). He is my strength and He is my protector. God gave all humans one simple thing that has caused all of us to be sinners and that one thing is free will. He gave us the ability to believe what we want to believe. He gave us the ability to act how we want and to do what we want, when we want to do it. He’s not a puppeteer nor are we puppets of His. He wants us to choose Him as the center of our lives. To acknowledge and believe that He sent His only Son to die on the cross for our sins- which in turn wipes all sin away- as long as we are saved and we repent. To just acknowledge that God is God and never to worship Him, in my beliefs, is not enough. God wants us to have a close and personal relationship with Him. He wants us to come to Him and to seek Him. Ever since I have established a secure relationship with Him, He speaks to me and guides and directs me. Do I screw up from time to time? Sure. Am I perfect? Heck no- because I’m not Jesus.

Secondly, to say that I am religious is not 100% accurate. I am a Christian- which means I follow God and only God. It also means that I believe there is only one God. If that wasn’t a belief of mine, then I would not be a Christian. Are there Christians out there that are not obedient to God? Sure there are. God loves all people the same. He loves you just as much as he loves me. He loves people who are atheists just as much as He does me. His love for us is unconditional- it is Agape. BUT, the fact still remains that He gave us free will to choose Him or turn from Him. That doesn’t change His love for us. To say that I am religious tends to lead people to think that I believe there’s a God and that’s it. To me, that is not enough. I am more than just a person who believes in God. I am His child. I am His follower and His witness. I have a relationship with Him. My job as a Christian is to worship Him with all my love and energy and to help lead others to Him.

I do not, in any way, mean to say your gods are not important. That would be very disrespectful and hurtful and I am not trying to do that at all. I agree with you that people can live their lives and be happy and not be a Christian- but sadly, when they die, that’s the end of that. I have chosen to follow God here on earth so that I may go to heaven and be with my creator forever. I choose to follow God because when I die, my TRUE life begins! I do not fear death, does it scare me? Occasionally yes, but I know where I’m going when I die. I’m going to my creator. I’m going to the creator of this old earth, the heavens, the skies, the oceans, the mountains, the fish in the waters and the animals on the earth and sky, and most importantly the creator of mankind. This body of mine will be renewed and I will live an eternity in heaven – which makes these short years here on earth almost meaningless when compared to the time I’ll get to spend in heaven. But God gave us a purpose to be here on earth,,, it’s not meaningless, it’s to win others to His name.

The reason I “give a darn” about what you believe is because I want to see you in heaven someday. I want you to experience the overwhelming joy and love that I have in my life for Christ- but I can guarantee you, you have not experienced Christ's joy in its fullness until He is the center of your life.

I hope these verses help you understand what I believe:
Isaiah 45:5 I am the Lord, and there is no other, besides me there is no God;
1 Corinthians 8:6 Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
James 2:19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!
John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
 
#24 ·
The reason I “give a darn” about what you believe is because I want to see you in heaven someday.

Isaiah 45:5 I am the Lord, and there is no other, besides me there is no God;
1 Corinthians 8:6 Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
James 2:19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!
John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Actually I am in heaven every day. Every day I watch my son play soccer, every day that I hold hands with my wife, every day that I live up to being as good a person as my dogs think I am, every day that I just enjoy the family life. Anything after that is just icing on the cake.

Good quotes. Trouble is the quotes are only valid if the book is right. You believe it is, I believe it isn't. Like I stated above, a whole lot of people in the world think that their book trumps your book. Some day at the end of days, it'll be fun to find out who was right. The engineer in me loves a new challenge at that point.
 
#25 · (Edited)
I think it's great that you see heavenly things everyday here on earth. I'm like you in that regard, I try not to take anything for granted- even though it's easy to do. Especially time with my wife and kids. Sometimes I get wrapped up in what I want to do and forget that my family is more important. I would, however, have to disagree that this earth is not actually heaven. In heaven there is no wrong doing, no sin, no death, no murder or rape or illness. Obviously, we'd have to agree that all those things happen here on earth. So there is a difference.

The verses I quoted are ones that I hope would help you understand my point of view- that's all. I do trust in this book and I do live by it. I find it extremely interesting that our world puts so much faith and trust in so many other things, but believing in a book that is all about God's love, compassion and most importantly His Son's sacrifice for us is not even considered. It's not like the Bible requires you to bend over backwards or something to become a Christian.?? All you have to do is believe. I just find it interesting that in our world today, so many people are searching for the next "big thing" to believe in, but when Christianity is brought up it's like "nahh".

Sadly, I would have to agree with you about "a whole lot of people in the world think that their book trumps your book". The only problem is, I don't ever hear any truth coming from "their" book OR all I'm read or shown is basically someone's interpretation of the Bible- which I often find disturbing because the Bible wasn't mean to be a fill in the blank type book. I witness the people who tell me about "their" book and I look at their lives and I don't see much happiness. I see them trying to be happy, I see them struggling constantly, but not ever experiencing the joy they could have by having Christ as their Savior. Sure you still struggle even as a Christian, but when you have God on your side, your battles and troubles become easier.

When it comes to believing in Jesus as God's Son ... I would change my beliefs in a heart beat if someone could actually prove to me that their god actually is the real way to heaven. But, that also has never happened. I talk to people who believe that objects are gods or money is god or even people in their life are a god. To me, as a Christian, this is silly. I have a book that can back up any and all arguments made towards my God. Those other books, nahh. My book was written by people who were spoken to by God and who witnessed Jesus' teaching. Yes, my book is old, very, very old, but I guess with the other god's books being newer that makes it easier to believe in or more credible or more relevant to our lifestyles "now-a-days" ? Interesting.

One of my main questions to non-believers is what do you want out of your "god". Every time it's "love, patience, understanding, forgiveness, mercy, glory, etc..." Well guess what, my God has all that and more.

Being a Christian requires me to take the Bible literally and to not change it. Sadly, many people in our world today change the Bible around so that it fits their life. They make it say something that it was NEVER intended to say- basically taking it out of context. The Bible can be a very confusing book to follow. It can be a scary thing to tackle. But with God's help, He will make it make sense and He'll make it fit your life. I can't tell you how many times I have been struggling with something in my life and I'll turn to the Bible and find a verse within minutes that lifts me up. I challenge you and any other people to try this the next time you encounter a problem in your life that you need help with from a "higher being". First, get your book out and spend 5 minutes to truly find a passage that fits and see if it truly gives you peace and then pray to your god and ask for help. Then spend 5 minutes in the Bible and pray to my God that He will show Himself. If you do this honestly, God will show Himself to you.

The Bible was never intended to just be some "good" reading material. It's life's textbook. It covers everything from the beginning of time until the end. It's a history book as well as one that offers information on the future- all while helping you deal with trouble and problems of today.

So to wrap up, I would have to say the same to you about your "book". It can only be validated if it is right. I hopefully have shared some instances in my life where my book has been proven right to me... I would like to hear some instances when yours has been right to you? Once again, my goal is to get to heaven and there is only one way to get there and that is through Jesus Christ. NO one gets to God without going through Jesus first. If you don't acknowledge Jesus as God's Son, why would God acknowledge you in heaven? So, if there's another way to get to heaven, I'm all ears at this point. And honestly, if it's valid and true, I'll join. But understand this... my God has acted on my life, He as done things in my life that are not easily explained. I have proof of my God's power- just look at my life. That's all the validation I need. You see there is no talking me out of my salvation... unless you have proof.

BTW simple Q for ya - just curious, do you believe in Jesus Christ? Not to follow Him or anything, but do you believe He is God's Son?
 
#28 ·
BTW simple Q for ya - just curious, do you believe in Jesus Christ? Not to follow Him or anything, but do you believe He is God's Son?
That's a loaded question along the lines of "have you stopped beating your wife" -- any answer admits to something. What I believe is that some guy existed at that time back in history, and became the focal point of a religious movement in the same fashion as Mohammed did among the (then) Persians. Records of history at that time are so very sketchy. All religions have to employ some form of mysticism because if it is all plain and factual and proveable then it's just science, not religion. Heck, we can't even find true verifiable records of Joseph Smith and he existed in America less than 200 years ago.

One of my main questions to non-believers is what do you want out of your "god".
Actually, I don't "want" anything out of my gods, and I don't worship them as gods. I believe their spirits provide guidance, wisdom, consolation, advice and so forth, but that any decisions that I make are mine and my responsibility only. What I "want" from them is nothing. I acknowledge thier existence in the things they do, but I realize that only I and fate are in control of my life based on the decisions that I make and external factors beyond my control. I need nothing from them. I am responsible for my happiness.

I would, however, have to disagree that this earth is not actually heaven.
Now that actually implies that you think there is something "better", and if there is then the subsequent implication is that your life here isn't truly fulfilled. I can attest to the fact that after life on Earth here with my family, my wife, my life, my friends, my pets then anything else afterwards is going to be a major let down. It just don't get any better than this. What can anyone or any god offer that is better than the simple joy of looking into my wife's eyes at night and holding her hand?

I enjoy your quotes, but let me caution you that it's just a book. And it's interpretation and actual language has changed so many times throughout history. It's a good book and a good story, don't get me wrong. I hope it helps more folks lead a good life. But it's still just a book.
 
#26 ·
All I can say about that is If you believe that JESUS died for your sins and rose again Then your good. If anybody or religion don't beleave in Jesus as GODs son then you aint going nowere. ...................
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.................
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
 
#29 ·
And that's where this discussion stops. After your final posting, my thoughts are confirmed that we are no where near being similar in beliefs. Feel free to contact me anytime in the future if you have any questions or want to discuss anything.

I'm not trying to offend you, but do you consider yourself an atheist? I've been re-reading many of your postings and I have not read anything that acknowledges a higher being that is your "god"- I've only found relationships and time spend outdoors. If you don't want to answer I completely understand- I'm not trying to disrespect you. I understand that being an atheist means you do not believe in a supreme being, but I struggled to find who your god is in your postings. Just curious
 
#35 ·
And that's where this discussion stops. ..... but I struggled to find who your god is in your postings. Just curious
Been gone on vacation, so I wasn't ignoring you. But like your first sentence states, there's no need to continue this between you and I. I was going to say "we have different beliefs", but only you have a belief. I have inner peace and comfort in the life that I lead, the actions that I produce and the path that I follow. I do not sin just by waking up each day, but since you do, I guess I'll offer my condolences. I hope your book guides you, which is what all books and teachings are supposed to do. Religion should help people become better people. And that's good enough.
 
#30 · (Edited)
I challenge you

This is for anyone and everyone. This song speaks exactly what my faith is about. I challenge anyone, if you are on the fence about God in your life or what to believe, please, turn this song on... by yourself, sit in the dark and pray that God will show Himself to you. Listen to the words of this song. The song talk about God's characteristics, God's love, God's mercy. This song almost brings tears to my eyes every time I hear it. God truly is awesome! Please, just do this one time. Pray to God or even better, just sit quietly and listen to this song and open your mind and heart and watch God work. All I ask is that you be willing to listen to Him if He speaks to you. My open invitation is still there as well- if you want to talk to me ANYTIME about anything, please email me, tay44lor@gmail.com I would love to tell you about what God has done in my life and what He can do in yours. Enjoy the song, close your eyes and open your heart..... because there are 10 thousand reasons to follow the one true God!
 
#33 ·
HB, thanks for the post, I've been trying to remember Mike's video. For those who believe nothing else needs to be said! Mike's message is clear enough for us to hear. I hope things settle down for you and your tasks at hand are not the burden you thought they were. We can endure, I've been at the bottom and I'm still here! Have a good one today, tomorrow will shine even brighter.
 
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